C&LS Train Master Fan Question

[riogrande491]

Back in the day Henry imported some beautiful models of the FM Train Master. These have 4 operating radiator fans (which the DB fan ran too) and come on one-by-one as the DC track voltage rises.

Can anyone tell me the operating voltage and current required by each micro motor? I'm planning to write a custom Loksound sound slot that turns them on not according to track voltage, but according to a simulation of water temperature as a function of time and throttle notch.

This obviously will require 4 Aux decoder outputs and custom circuits to drive the motors. This bit I can handle.

I know my request is a stretch because these models are scarce as hen's teeth. But I thought I would ask anyway before opening the model and losing all the screws (or my screws, most of which are loose already.)

[ScaleCraft]

Interesting. Not a whole lot of folks are going to be able to differentiate temperature and load as it compares to fan and fan speed.
Since these are as rare as said Hen's Teeth, bets are high nobody has one apart to tell you.

First, maybe the motors have numbers you can use to determine.
Me?
I'd pull the shell, place the loco on rollers, and using a voltmeter, monitor each fan voltage as is comes on. If your dcc application is going to not just turn them on, but regulate and adjust individual speeds based upon temperature someplace, that should give you a starting point on voltages to work with....and what not to go higher than in voltage.
Once you have top end data, you can disconnect motors and apply voltage, starting at zero, working up to where they turn freely..and that's your bottom end.

[Jay Criswell]

If I remember correctly, he used pager motors, or something like that.

If you're going to install DCC you're going to have to take it apart anyway. While you have it apart follow the wiring and look for anything that may drop the voltage. I've seen one apart but didn't pay any attention.

Like Dave says, there may be some form of identification on the motor's housings.

Short of finding any trick circuitry measure the voltage going to the motors and match it with you decoder.

From what I've observed most models, with operating fans, turn too fast. I don't think the prototypes spun all that fast...could be wrong. Been there before.

Jay

[E7]

You might want to ask Matt Forsyth:

http://mattforsyth.com/

He modified one for a customer...sound, and I think DCC.

He posted about it with a short video on OGR.

Rich

[riogrande491]

E7 -

Thank you sir! I had forgotten about Matt's fine work.

At the moment I'm working out how to "loosely" simulate radiator temperature based on accumulated time spent in various throttle notches, then drive 0-4 fan motors accordingly, all to be programmed into a LokSound 5L DCC decoder. By accumulating time spent in different notches the fan behavior will hopefully not feel repetitive. I'm sure that electrically I will need to connect the decoder fan outputs through an external circuit board that can handle the power requirements of the motors.

And agreed, any pager motor spins way too fast. It might be worthwhile making a circuit that PWM drives the fans, with a kick start to start each one turning. That said, I've watched the TM fans on a DC test track and the speed was visually OK, at least to my untrained eye. I had to wipe drool off my chin.

[Chris Webster]

These have 4 operating radiator fans (which the DB fan ran too) and come on one-by-one as the DC track voltage rises.

Can anyone tell me the operating voltage and current required by each micro motor?

I don't know, but your description of how the fans turn on makes me think there is a different diode drop to each motor, so the motors are probably 1.5 or 3 volts.

[up148]

Bob, the stuff you do is absolutely amazing! I'm going to try and follow your lead on some items you've incorporated into the A&O locos, but being a novice at electronics what you do is almost like magic.

[LarryK]

Matt has some great videos on his youtube channel of the Trainmaster he worked on. Really quality work!

Larry

[Jay Criswell]

My biggest issue with Henry's diesels is the drive itself. As with all things C&LS, very well built but, the o/a ratio matches nothing else and is way too high, slow speed and starting are not good, wheel spin with the slightest load or grade. Matt spent a lot of time tweaking decoders to get decent operation. He is very good at it. He is a resource I use when dealing with decoders and he's bailed me out numerous times.

To drop the ratio and, improve the running on some RS32s (I think that's what they were), I removed the 24 volt Pittmans and replaced them with Faulhaber gear head motors. Because the customer runs straight DC and wanted a little more weight I added the biggest flywheels I could fit in the space provided. I like flywheels. Also had to create bearing carriers for the ball bearings used in the input of the tower. Because the o/a ratio is dropped the top speed is dropped but slow speed, starting, and pulling is vastly improved.

I was lucky enough to obtain about 3 dozen of the original tower castings and my plan is to come up with a simpler solution. Primary reason being the expense of the Faulhaber gear head motors. A work in semi-progress.

Okay nothing to do with the fans but slight thread drift is okay, right?

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Jay

[riogrande491]

Jay -
I don't mind this thread drift one bit. That's beautiful drive work and I could look at it all day.

Agreed, Henry's gearing is way off. Many years ago he came out to Colorado for a narrow gauge convention. Before the convention, he stopped at the A&O to hand-deliver a pair of his diesels. He told me that he really wanted his engines to "feel the grade." Without back-EMF, they don't run for squat.

Henry told me it was a 24V motor, but I'm sure it is a custom wound armature because the stall current at 12V is about 1.0A. I personally measured 2 of them with filtered DC from a lab bench supply. One was 1A, the other 1.1A. Pittman's own data for their 24V motor isn't anything close to 1A. An upside of this is that I can use an HO decoder, and the downside that I need 2 engines in consist to pull a decent train upgrade.

Sure, one can add weight to these engines, but on one of mine with extra lead in the fuel tank the wheel plating is starting to wear off.

[Jay Criswell]

Bob,

Yep, Henry told me it was a "Special" motor, wound to his specs. No reason to doubt it.

Jay

[Roy]

I'm having problems understanding what I'm seeing, here. Is this a belt drive to an under floor shaft?

[Jay Criswell]

Roy,

No, no belts. It's a stock C&LS drive except for the new gear head motor and adapters used to support the input gear used in the center tower. Originally, the gear was pressed onto the end of a Pittman motor. Yes, there are driveshafts below the frame/floor but they are high enough in the frame so you can't see them. Kinda of a tank drive that isn't.

Jay

[Roy]

I'm not familiar with the C&LS drive. What is the cylindrical part over the middle of the engine frame, over the hole in the floor? A central shaft appears to be connected to the gearhead shaft, by way of clear tubing.

[riogrande491]

The geared motor and drive above the frame in Jay's photos is new.

Here's a stock C&LS Pittman motor drive from an RS-11. There is a second motor shaft sticking out just under the speaker mount. FYI the speaker is a Tang Band T1-1925S that fires sound up and out the radiator exhaust grill.