A few CVRR pictures and some other related pictures....

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Can you show me, then, an arch - not use of a lintel - used by a civilization that predated Roman arches? This would be something of which I am totally unaware.

Not immediately; I don't have a pantheon of Greek architectural photography in my hip pocket and I surely don't have anything handy on the Etruscans. They were predecessors to the Romans in Italy

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Can you show me, then, an arch - not use of a lintel - used by a civilization that predated Roman arches? This would be something of which I am totally unaware.

Not immediately; I don't have a pantheon of Greek architectural photography in my hip pocket and I surely don't have anything handy on the Etruscans. They were predecessors to the Romans in Italy

No "pantheon" available. Cute. Hahevah, with the Greeks, I can see lots of pillar fun, the various capitals and all, but I surely cannot picture any Roman-like arches with those folks. And the Etruscans, well, aside from tombs, I'm not sure what I can conjure up from them in my mind's eye.

But someday, if you get around to it, I'd love to learn something new, on this topic, from a mind as excellent as yours, Rufus.
Murph
P.S. As I said, no lintels.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

P.S. As I said, no lintels.

And no lentils either!

Try the Arkadiko Bridge from ~1300 BC Mycenaean

Maybe the Eleutherna Bridge - an ancient Greek corbel arch bridge

Rhodes Footbridge -- Greek arch bridge in Rhodes, Greece - 4th century BC or thereabouts -- oldest known Greek bridge with a voussoir arch

Again, the Romans refined and made it almost an art form, but they did so working from earlier, cruder versions - they got a lot of their ideas from the Greeks

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Oh man-o-man, you've given me plenty to research and learn, there, yes sir. Thanx!

P.S. Now, that's the kind of conversation I like to have on a forum. We may disagree, I may get corrected, and then I learn something- all without being called dumb, too! Nice. Real nice. And NORMAL.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Oh man-o-man, you've given me plenty to research and learn, there, yes sir. Thanx!

BTW, the Roman did not invent the dome or the vaulted ceiling either,

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Oh man-o-man, you've given me plenty to research and learn, there, yes sir. Thanx!

BTW, the Roman did not invent the dome or the vaulted ceiling either,

Hhmmmm. Well. That much I knew. Sorta, I must have paid closer attention in class that day.
And ya gotta admit, taking the Roman Arch and extending it to become Barrel Vaulting was prettydarn cool. Then, expanding that into naves, and before that BATHS!!!!????! Too cool, if ya ask me. Who did it? I dunno. Maybe nobody knows a civilization and/or a person, from the Middle Ages (!) who developed that into wonderful cathedrals (!)

The dome, though? Can we say, PANTHEON? (Can we say, "Howz yer oculus?" )Rome?! Later, Florence? Then Micky for Pope Whatever? Eh? Huh?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Oh man-o-man, you've given me plenty to research and learn, there, yes sir. Thanx!

BTW, the Roman did not invent the dome or the vaulted ceiling either,

Hhmmmm. Well. That much I knew. Sorta, I must have paid closer attention in class that day.
And ya gotta admit, taking the Roman Arch and extending it to become Barrel Vaulting was prettydarn cool. Then, expanding that into naves, and before that BATHS!!!!????! Too cool, if ya ask me. Who did it? I dunno. Maybe nobody knows a civilization and/or a person, from the Middle Ages (!) who developed that into wonderful cathedrals (!)

I seriously would think that the evolution of church building and that architecture development has been well studied and published. Probably drier than ashes to read, but I bet there might be good pictures.

[rex desilets]

Actually, no. And, much better appreciated when seen in person.
I appreciate the history you present, too. learned some things. And here I thought you spent your life enmeshed in test tubes plus woodworking and the occasional model

[Rufus T. Firefly]

And, much better appreciated when seen in person.

Indeed! I made a point of visiting the great cathedral in Cologne when I have to change trains there traveling from Aachen to Frankfurt some years ago. Pictures are nice, but reality is better.

I appreciate the history you present, too. learned some things. And here I thought you spent your life enmeshed in test tubes plus woodworking and the occasional model

That's good! I'm multi-dimensional,

[MurphOnMillerAve]

I have a theory about this, the Gothic arch, the next step in the evolution of Romanesque Barrel Vaulting. The clusters of vertical, collected, thin columns. The light shining in among the vertical elements. The color of the light. The upward thrust and the feeling of protection. The tops of the trees creating their canopy, the church's roof, like hands folded in prayer above us, in protection and praise.

I think Gothic architecture is us remembering the protection of the forest, from which we departed, headed out onto the savannas. Out there, we were exposed. Subsequently, we devised language so we could communicate and facilitate hunts and protective efforts quickly and efficiently.

But we always remembered the protection of the forest and we did so with awe.

I suggest that the forest is inspiration for these protective, inspiring, upward looking (toward God) Gothic environments, where we could find a memory.

What caused me to think this was a trip I made to Upstate NY, some years ago. I walked into a forest - a deep and very vertical one, tall and grand, and saw the light streaming in from above and around the trees. It was very, very quiet; calm; protective. Being there was almost a religious experience, in its respect and reverence for something greater than I.

[rex desilets]

Gothic architecture traces to the Abbot Suger of St Denis, inspired, it is said, by returning Crusaders who had observed Moorish architecture in the Holy Land. Suger remodeled the choir of St Denis in this new style and the opening ceremony was attended by the great and good from across Europe. Suger believed that the light coming in from the new, enlarged, stained glass windows was a manifestation of the light of Heaven. he also decorated the church richly to represent the City of God (and was harshly criticized by the Cistercian Bernard of Clairvaux for such opulence). Three pieces from the alter are displayed in the Louvre.

2018_06_21..Vaso_in_porfido_(egitto_o_roma_imperiale)_e_aquila_di_suger,_ante_1147,_da_st._denis.JPG (2.94 MiB) Viewed 2302 times

[Rufus T. Firefly]

[HONDO74]

Interesting history of the Northern Central Railway

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Central_Railway

Another interesting picture/scene that would be perfect to model for an old time small layout....

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Thank you, Rufus, for the deeper historical perspective. I'll continue to search for information about these two cultures - Arkadiko and Eleutherna - and their engineering marvels.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

On the Reading in Perkasie