How Stupid Are They?

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MurphOnMillerAve
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:48 pm

webenda wrote:...
And that is why petroleum... is a liquid form of rocks....

No. Not at all.

I wouldn't even refer to coal as a "rock." Oh, coal is hard, all right, and can hurt your head if thrown at it; however, Anthracite and Bituminous are two different forms of coal, one harder than the other, and they burn differently, but I would not refer to them as being "rocks," no matter how hard they are. They are both organic - hydrocarbons. Nobody (firemen) ever loaded rocks into a coal tender for a steam locomotive to burn.

Think: Carbon Cycle. There's the explanation. All living things are made of carbon.

A "liquid form of rock" would be lava. And that's a whole other story in Geology.

In the atmosphere: carbon + oxygen = carbon dioxide. Plants use CO2 & sunlight to make themselves and to grow. Plants that die and are buried can become "fossil fuels." We burn them and the carbon becomes part of the atmosphere again as carbon dioxide. Thus, the "Cycle."

Petroleum and coal are Fossil Fuels, and are, therefore, having once been plants/animals, are organic parts of the Carbon Cycle.

Once the plant or animal dies and is buried under thousands of feet of silt, sand, or mud, it becomes fossil fuel and can be mined/extracted. Perhaps, the fact of where petroleum and coal are found can make some people think petroleum/oil is "liquid rock." No, it is not. Finding thick or thin jelly between layers of bread in a peanut butter-jelly sandwich does not make the jelly bread, by association or emplacement.

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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pm

MurphOnMillerAve wrote:All living things are made of carbon.


And a few other elements, :wink: :wink:
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:40 pm

webenda wrote:...
(1) Where is petroleum found? It is found in association with Shale, Shale/Sandstone and Carbonate rock.

(2) Oil is not mineral based due to being found in the rocks but because of its source… rocks. Petroleum is formed from rocks and water.

(3)...And that is why petroleum is a mineral, it is a liquid form of rocks....

Let me address these by the numbers I gave them:
(1) Yes, petroleum , a fossil fuel, is found with shale. That is because the decaying organic matter (plants & animals: zooplankton & algae) became buried millions of years ago under sand (sandstone; limestone, etc.) and silt, which applied great, increasing pressure and heat, causing the organic matter to change into Kerogen , which is found in varying oil shale.

(2) Correct, that "oil is not mineral based," because a Mineral is a naturally occurring CHEMICAL compound, not produced by life processes; thus, a mineral is "abiogenic" in origin.

(3) Thus, petroleum is NOT a mineral. Thus, it is not "a liquid form of rocks."

Have I helped Rufus make his point and added a bit of science to the "conversation"? I do hope so.
Murph

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webenda
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby webenda » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:54 pm

MurphOnMillerAve wrote:How am I doing? :D

What you are offering is the incorrect theory of how petroleum oils are generated.

You mention the carbon cycle. The primary source of carbon/CO2 is outgassing from the Earth's interior at midocean ridges, hotspot volcanoes, and subduction-related volcanic arcs. The CO2 released at subduction zones is derived from the metamorphism of carbonate rocks subducting with the ocean crust. The same rocks that are the source of mineral oil.

A pretty good argument against what I said to start this conversation is the CaO in my example. CaO (lime) is not a mineral species found in natural rock formations. Whilst this reaction is possible, it is not plausible. More likely there is less excess oxygen and CaO3 (calcite) as an end product. When I get time I will go back and fix that. (I went back and fixed it using a hint from Rufus.)

Oh, and I would not refer to coal as a rock either, it clearly has plants as its source.

Edit 1: Added note about fixing the CaO problem on the previous page.
Last edited by webenda on Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MurphOnMillerAve
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:25 pm

webenda wrote:
MurphOnMillerAve wrote:How am I doing? :D

What you are offering is the incorrect theory of how petroleum oils are generated.

You mention the carbon cycle. The primary source of carbon/CO2 is outgassing from the Earth's interior at midocean ridges, hotspot volcanoes, and subduction-related volcanic arcs. The CO2 released at subduction zones is derived from the metamorphism of carbonate rocks subducting with the ocean crust. The same rocks that are the source of mineral oil.

A pretty good argument against what I said to start this conversation is the CaO in my example. CaO (lime) is not a mineral species found in natural rock formations. Whilst this reaction is possible, it is not plausible. More likely there is less excess oxygen and CaO3 (calcite) as an end product. When I get time I will go back and fix that.....

I'm sorry, Wayne, I like and respect you a whole lot, but I do not ascribe to a word of this. Not one word.

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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:36 pm

MurphOnMillerAve wrote: CaO (lime) is not a mineral species found in natural rock formations.


I'll buy that...

More likely there is less excess oxygen and CaO3 (calcite) as an end product.


Pretty sure that calcite is actually CaCO3 and that the reaction actually is CO2 driven.
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rex desilets
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby rex desilets » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:38 pm

I guess I need to side with Webenda here.
I was a believer in the decayed dinosaur theory of petroleum until I read that in the Gulf played-out wells were refilling. Some might think that more decayed dinosaurs had popped up, but now I doubt the dinosaur theory.
I also doubt any and all science stated as dogma.
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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:52 pm

rex desilets wrote:I guess I need to side with Webenda here.
I was a believer in the decayed dinosaur theory of petroleum until I read that in the Gulf played-out wells were refilling. Some might think that more decayed dinosaurs had popped up, but now I doubt the dinosaur theory.
I also doubt any and all science stated as dogma.


It is my dogma to just doubt dogma......dogmatically!

However, I can understand how "played out" wells can "refill" w/o that contradicting the organic decay theories
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby rogruth » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:32 pm

So we are NOT running out of petroleum in the near future?
Well. Then why should we develop all the alternative fuel vehicles?
Oh yeah. To save the earth. But when will the really populous
countries join in that effort?
roger

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Roy
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby Roy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:57 pm

FWIW, the definition of "mineral oil" is "a distillation product of petroleum, especially one used as a lubricant, moisturizer, or laxative." Sounds like a misnomer.
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MurphOnMillerAve
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:59 pm

rex desilets wrote:...I was a believer in the decayed dinosaur theory of petroleum until I read that in the Gulf played-out wells were refilling. Some might think that more decayed dinosaurs had popped up, but now I doubt the dinosaur theory....

I'm with you in that regard, Rex. I too used to think petroleum was the result of dead dinosaurs. Remember the Sinclair (sp?) gasoline stations and advertisements using the green Brontosaurus jumping into a car's gas tank, used to symbolize their (alleged) part in the process?

Well, since then, it has become understood that the formation of petroleum occurred far before the dinosaurs roamed the earth on land. This fossil fuel was derived from fossilized organic material such as zooplankton and algae, in the oceans, which became buried under tons of ocean water and sediment, not on land from the dinosaurs.
Last edited by MurphOnMillerAve on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Roy
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby Roy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:40 pm

webenda wrote:Crude OIl is called a mineral...

I saw some of this horseshit online. What we have here is a fallacy of ambiguity. Folks using "organic" in different senses.
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robert.
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby robert. » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:55 pm

does crude very from region to region?
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rex desilets
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby rex desilets » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:27 pm

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
rex desilets wrote:I guess I need to side with Webenda here.
I was a believer in the decayed dinosaur theory of petroleum until I read that in the Gulf played-out wells were refilling. Some might think that more decayed dinosaurs had popped up, but now I doubt the dinosaur theory.
I also doubt any and all science stated as dogma.


It is my dogma to just doubt dogma......dogmatically!

However, I can understand how "played out" wells can "refill" w/o that contradicting the organic decay theories
More on this, please
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webenda
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Re: How Stupid Are They?

Postby webenda » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:53 pm

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:Pretty sure that calcite is actually CaCO3 and that the reaction actually is CO2 driven.

Thank you Rufus, I used that information to fix the CaO problem in my Rocks to Oil reaction formulae.
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
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