How Stupid Are They?

[webenda]

(I challenge anybody, here, to show me or quote to me the allegedly racist passages or illustrations.)

How can you not see it Murph? (What is the theme of this thread?)

If I Ran the Zoo.jpg (172.91 KiB) Viewed 5136 times

Librarian finds Chinese character offensive.

And to think.jpg (306.97 KiB) Viewed 5135 times

If I ran the zoo to Zomba-ma-Tant I would goo.png (416.07 KiB) Viewed 5135 times

Flit Ad by Dr Seuss.jpg (182.24 KiB) Viewed 5136 times

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Challenge well addressed. I consider myself better informed, now. Thanks. You did a good job, Wayne.

Does that excuse the bad manners of the librarian ? The return couldn't have been done quietly? Or maybe the public dressing-down of the First Lady was good taste and an opportune moment for change - a "teachable moment"?

And if you are calling me stupid ("What is the theme of this thread?"), you did an effective job. I certainly did a good job of setting myself up for the hit, huh. You see, I had only a passing actual knowledge of the Dr. Seuss series, having considered it acceptable by judging from its wide acceptance around me. For example, there is a man and his son on OGR Forum who proudly wear Seuss hats to many model train occasions, and as an avatar photo, and at meets/shows like the TCA Meet at York, PA, as well as to restaurants that modelers have group meals at. Are they racists for wearing those hats, appearing to endorse an allegedly racist author? No excuse for me, though, to have accepted Seuss at face-value. Thanks for the heads-up. This was a good lesson for me, to make sure I am more specifically and personally informed before coming to the defense of children's literature again.

More specifically, however, regarding some of the images you showed us in this thread:

Concerning the image of what might be presented as a running "Asian" person - man/boy (both labels are used):
1.) Haven't millions of Asians (100's of millions ?) of various Asian ethnicities worn such conical hats ? (For example, I believe I just saw many wearing such hats in the Burns Vietnam series this past week.) The depiction in the cartoon might be cliché, but racist? Not in my opinion.
2.) Don't millions of Asians eat using chopsticks? (It was expected of patrons, in a Chinese restaurant in Boston, when I was there several years ago, to eat using chopsticks, instead of cutlery.) And don't Asians eat from bowls, at times, like others of us do (though I doubt many folks do so while running, as the caricature you provided depicts.)
So, where is the racism in that cartoon?

The images of what might be concluded to be some Black people shocked me, at first, and seem deplorable.
However, looking at the two potbellied males,
1.) is it the potbellies that you find to be offensive? Well, believe me, there are plenty of folk who have potbellies that could identify (including me).
2.) It certainly couldn't be the hair-do's you are suggesting by showing that cartoon that are racist since something like that style is worn by numerous Blacks and Caucasians, to say the least, in this country, and many with the tufts even higher - much, higher.
3.) The man standing on the small island: What are you suggesting is racist?

The man carrying the big bird down the yellow hillside: He has a handsome face. I have no idea if there are folks who wear such clothing and tufted hats, but he seems happy and strong. It's the bird that is the focus for me, because he seems quite a character. I'd have to hear what an Asian might say about the depiction of the human being, to learn if he or she felt the cartoon was unflattering or cliché or racist.

Can you be specific, not simply emotional and/or condescending? What is it about the cartoons that you consider racist? Educate me.

And what's next to complain about as allegedly "racist"? Aunt Jemima? The original Black woman selected to represent the brand was a former slave, Nancy Green. Other handsome Black women have been utilized since her, but since the symbol could be considered by some to still harken back to slavery, is that racist to continue its use as a label?

Colonel Sanders> He wears a white suit and speaks in something of an "accent". Shall he be considered a racist symbol because his image suggests "The Old South" and a time of slavery? Time to change him too?

[Roy]

This is why all of us whites need education about racism.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

This is why all of us whites need education about racism.

But that is not a one-way street, Roy. Words like, "Honkey" and "Cracker" leap to mind. Who made them up and applied them?

[robert.]

Dr. Seuss is a great example for any businessman wanting to start a business. I guess i should have said "businessperson". More then 25 publisher rejected his work. Not till the 27th door he knocked on did he get a yes. He never gave up. Lets go back to that Asian man. In modern times Asians were sent to camps out west. I never hear a tv news crew saying anything about that. In fact i never hear a Japanese person say anything either. I'm sorry but i don't find Seuss's books offending. I find them easy targets for someone that wants to be offended. Much worse things in today's music.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

... I'm sorry but i don't find Seuss's books offending. I find them easy targets for someone that wants to be offended. Much worse things in today's music.

I admire your courage, Robert, in taking a stand and being so candid about it. I would certainly agree with you. Some folks walk around just looking for a fuss when it involves perceived wrongs relating to race, ever at the ready to be offended and to be offensive. IMHO .

Is it, I wonder, more egregious to have a work of literature that may use unflattering cartoons than to not take exception to rap "songs" that yell and celebrate or boast about killing cops, or did I only imagine I heard that? Oh yeah, plenty of room there to point fingers at others for improper or socially heinous attitudes.

[webenda]

So, where is the racism in that cartoon?

Can you be specific, not simply emotional and/or condescending? What is it about the cartoons that you consider racist? Educate me.

The cartoons show ethnic stereotypes. Ethnic stereotypes tend to be negative and prejudicial. If you think that we have gotten past all this as a nation, guess again. In Florida, a new ethnic-based educational policy is in place that sets lower achievement goals for Hispanics and African Americans–traditionally lower achieving groups. Testing benchmarks based on race, plain and simple.

Florida Students Talk About The State’s Race-Based Education Standards
Reference -- https://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/201 ... standards/

[MurphOnMillerAve]

...Hispanics and African Americans–traditionally lower achieving groups. ...

Where? Country-wide ?!

The Hispanics I could somewhat understand scores being a challenge, having invested several decades into teaching them, among my other students. I would attribute any low test scores to English having 26 letters but 40 sounds; plus, the variations due to diphthongs, schwas, silent letters, etc. , to mention just a few difficulties, which can be confusing to folks speaking , reading, and writing a language from birth that does not have so many outside influences like English does. Add to that the Latin and Greek roots in English, the prefixes, suffixes, and the French, Spanish, and Italian words adopted directly into English, and the burden builds. Cracking the code is no simple task.

My maternal and paternal grandmothers never achieved mastery after emigrating to the USA in the late 1800's.

My experience in seeing Hispanics invest effort into learning English would include the value of their strong family units, sincere involvement in the Church, and community standards which encourage and reward success in school and in learning English, in particular, and I see a formula for success in that demographic, indeed. Perhaps, it's not easy, but a will to succeed with language is there, in my observation, which comes from firsthand experience, right up to the moment.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Testing benchmarks .........

Testing Proves Testing Works

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Testing benchmarks .........

Testing Proves Testing Works

Yes, and in my considered opinion, teaching for the standardized test is not entirely beneficial when I comes to acquiring language mastery. Some educators consider it a disastrous imposition on educators and students alike.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Testing benchmarks .........

Testing Proves Testing Works

Yes, and in my considered opinion, teaching for the standardized test is not entirely beneficial when I comes to acquiring language mastery. Some educators consider it a disastrous imposition on educators and students alike.

Yes, it results in teachers teaching students to pass tests and students getting good scores then results in teachers getting good score and no one learns anything.

BTW, "Testing Proves Testing Works" is from a movie briefly seen as a banner on a wall........name the movie.

[up148]

I'm sorry but i don't find Seuss's books offending. I find them easy targets for someone that wants to be offended. Much worse things in today's music.

+1 on that account. Our skin is too thin these days and ethnic slurs and stereo types can be found in many older books, movies, stories, drawings, cartoons, etc. What do we do, ban or destroy all the old movies showing many of these ethnicities in the jobs they held during that time. So many classic movies made prior to the 50's show white actors playing Oriental, Hispanic and blackface. Is that next to be attacked?

It was a time that doesn't exist now and won't ever exist again. We've grown beyond that time and why people of color can't celebrate what their parents and grandparents fought for, so they wouldn't have to live in that same racist world, is beyond me. By acting the way they do today, they stand more of a chance of turning previously non-racist white people into racist. Many blacks with the loudest voices today are extremely racist. We can't change history and to hide or destroy what we once were, is to deny it happened, at some level. Not healthy in my opinion.

BH

[webenda]

Our prejudice populous views the black businessman in this image as identical to what they have learned from cartoons like the Warner Bros. Bugs Bunny cartoon of 1941, "All This And Rabbit Stew."

Reference: https://youtu.be/GW8DBilSEB0

[robert.]

Testing benchmarks .........

Testing Proves Testing Works

Yes, and in my considered opinion, teaching for the standardized test is not entirely beneficial when I comes to acquiring language mastery. Some educators consider it a disastrous imposition on educators and students alike.

Pa is cutting down on standardized testing.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/polit ... 70814.html

[rogruth]

Wayne et al.,
First I must say that I am often wrong.
The Bugs cartoon is from 76 years ago. Not all but many of us have progressed beyond that stage.
I agree with a lot of what BH says above.
I grew up in a town that had its start about the same time as Ohio. I know that isn't really old
but it was and still is a town with a large mixture of ethnic backgrounds. Some families had only
lived in the U.S. for several years while some for several generations. Most of my friends spoke
"American" with a smattering of their family native language. Their parents struggled a little
sometimes with their parents language and their parents with English. Todays immigrants don't
seem to make an effort to learn English. When I was in the 8th grade, 1947-1948, a boy from
Italy moved into our neighborhood and school with no English speakers in his family. Within
@ two months he could carry on conversations and was teaching his parents at home what he
was learning at school. In In 1978 where I was teaching we had a like situation with a family
from India. My point is that earlier in our history immigrants made an attempt to learn English
where today many do not and don't want to. If immigrants enter the country in a legal manner
and try to learn English I see no reason to complain.
I remember visiting Gila Bend, Arizona when a daughter was in the Air Force. I noticed that
most of us English speakers were at a disadvantage. The Latinos (probably incorrect terminology)
spoke their language and English. The Indians, Tohono O'Odham, spoke their language, the Latino
language and English. Yes there were some of each that did well with all.