What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

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G3750
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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:14 pm

Updated 2/15/2015:

I don't have any photos, but a fair amount of work got done today.

  • All 7 feeder pairs for Block 8 (Weirton Steel Yard) were identified and re-labeled.
  • All 2 feeder pairs for Block 3 (Weirton) were identified and re-labeled.
  • Accessory bus wires for switches 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 were labeled.
  • Brackets were installed on the east edge of the layout to hold a masonite backdrop
  • General wiring clean-up took place - more cable ties were added.

I didn't get as much as I wanted done, but real progress was made. The work isn't particularly photogenic. It would hard to tell progress from the photos in the previous post, but it did. I am on the verge of connecting the ends of Switch Bus #1 together.

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

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G3750
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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:01 pm

Updated 2/17/2015:

I finished wiring up Switch Bus #2 (or so I thought) last night and tried it out. Nothing except some chattering and alternate light flashing from some DZ-2500 switch machines. Not quite sure what's going on. I disconnected Switch Bus #2 and tried again - Switch Bus #1 works perfectly. Disconnected Switch Bus #1 and connected #2 and tried again. This is even more strange - only a couple of pushbuttons are powered. Clearly something is mis-wired. I will have to examine this in the light of day and when I have a clear head.

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

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J. S. Bach
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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby J. S. Bach » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:10 pm

I hope that you are keeping "off-campus" copies of all of your posts; they will make an interesting progress journal to read at a future date.

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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:36 pm

J. S. Bach wrote:I hope that you are keeping "off-campus" copies of all of your posts; they will make an interesting progress journal to read at a future date.


I have been doing that periodically. I was just thinking it's time to do that again.

Thanks!

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

—Katy Faust

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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:37 am

Updated 2/18/2015:

Took another look yesterday at the Switch Bus #2 situation. I'm not sure what's going on. I've got 15.9 VAC at the DZ-2001 junction point (where the DZ-2001 wires and the accessory tap wires meet to go out to the switches). But at the terminal block where the loop of Switch Bus #2 is, I've got 3.8 VAC? I'm either measuring something incorrectly or have a short-circuit somewhere (and there are no fuses on this bus). :?:

I've got a debugging call with Dennis Zander (Z-Stuff) coming up soon. I'm hoping I mis-wired something or did something stupid (and easy to fix).

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:53 am

Updated 2/26/2015:

I have a few things to report.

First, some progress has been made with the Switch Bus #2. A bad crimp was isolated and power is now flowing to all DZ-2500a switch machines on Bus #2. We still don't have a functioning DZ-2001 signal to each, but we are making progress.

Second, the bridge shoe components arrived yesterday. I am in the process of doing a test assembly. So far, so good. The parts are going to get painted a flat black tomorrow at my friend's paint booth. When I have one fully assembled, I'll post a photo.

Found the appropriate color for the yellowed concrete of the PRR bridge piers. The piers are going to get painted tomorrow as well. Then I plan to weather them with powder and apply Dullcote.

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:09 am

Updated 3/2/2015:

As noted on the Weekend Photo thread, the components for my larger bridge shoes showed up last week and were painted. I assembled one and tested its appearance with the bridge. I think they are a huge improvement over the smaller commercial ones. Those were simply too small and were overwhelmed by the bridge.

Annotated Bridge Shoe v2.jpg
Annotated Bridge Shoe v2.jpg (69.68 KiB) Viewed 3991 times


Here is the photo with the bridge.

NewBridgeShoes_02_.JPG
NewBridgeShoes_02_.JPG (39.2 KiB) Viewed 3991 times


I am also thinking about a platform that would elevate the bridge shoe about 2 scale feet. This more closely resembles the prototype.

Anyway, progress is happening despite my best efforts. :lol:

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:49 pm

Updated 3/5/2015:

As promised, here's the latest on the DZ-2001 saga.

I am debugging Switch Bus #2, which controls the eastern side of the layout (Weirton) and contains the following:
Switch #8; entrance to Passing Siding
Switches 9 & 10 (wired as a cross-over); an entrance to Weirton Steel Yard
Switch #11; entrance to Weirton Junction; controls a DZ-1060 PRR position signal
Switch #12; an entrance to Weirton Steel
Switch #13; Weirton Steel Yard switch and lead to Hidden Storage Yard
Switches 14 & 15 (wired as a cross-over); entrance to Open Hearth Mill
Switch #16; entrance to Standard Slag

I powered up the Switch Bus around 3:00 PM on Tuesday and had intermittent firing of switches using the CAB-1 and push-buttons. A mixed bag. All switch machines were getting 15.2-15.3 VAC. The DZ-2001 red LED was flickering (as it should be). All push buttons and switch machines were showing a consistent color (Red or Green) except 16 (totally dark). Except for 16, this is also as it should be.

I powered off and wrote up my notes. Then I powered back on to check something. At this point, the DZ-2001 LED went solid red (not good). All CAB-1 control of the switches went away. All push button functionality except 16 seemed to be OK. Switch machine #16 is dark (no power). Push button #16 shows both Red and Green lights (not good).

Apparently, "What we have here, is failure to communicate". :lol:

I have been exchanging e-mails with Dennis Zander (Z-Stuff). I think he's going to tell me that one of the switch machines has totally failed and has to be removed. My money is on #16.

When I get a chance (maybe tomorrow), I will remove the signal wire from #16 and see if the rest of the Switch Bus starts working.

You now have my entire train of thought on the matter. It really helps me to write it out and (hopefully) explain it clearly.

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

—Katy Faust

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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby rogruth » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:00 pm

George,

The bridge is looking great.

I hope I get to see it in place someday.
roger

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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby MYmoo » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:42 am

George,
Excellent work on the bridge and piers!
-----

Should've commented on these pics when you posted them, I did not, I trust it's not too late now...
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:58 pm
download/file.php?id=9622

These 'might' be a contributary factor to you having 'issues'
with the DZ- product line, and/or operation with TMCC.

The use of 'suitcase' connectors is a {almost} certain guarantee
that you will have continuing electrical 'issues' down the line,
which most often get 'blamed' on something else.

As you know, (or should...) :
'suitcase' connectors physically destroy the wire
upon installation, by cutting thru the insulation and conductor(s),
reducing the current carrying capacity,
introducing a high resistance heat generating connection,
and/or a poor, or non-connection, in a low current situation.

Suitcase connectors should NOT be used with stranded wiring,
as they completely sever many strands of the wire.
These severed strands may act like:
a resistor, inductor, capacitor, transformer, transmitter, antenna,
dependent upon physical characteristics of the wire,
and woltage, current, frequency of signals/data.
Not good. :(

Used on a solid (one strand) conductor, they will slice the conductor by 50 percent or more.
Also un-good, :( for the reasons noted above.
The closest analogy would be a one lane only construction zone on a four lane Interstate during rush hour.
Electrons act like humans under similiar circumstances...(or should I say, humans act like electrons...)???...
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:58 pm
download/file.php?id=9623

Looped wiring under the table will also give you 'unique experiences' when employed in RF and giga-hertz (read command control) circuitry.

Another analogy, ...round-abouts/traffic circles used on some intersections and freeway interchanges around the country.
Yery definately confusing encounter for the out-of-towner, ...electron or human.
-----
Unplug When Done.
-----
Peace,

MYron R. MOOre

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jlong
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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby jlong » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:40 am

George, the bridge looks great. You've spoke of having to sell some things to help pay for it. Have you thought of having a toll booth for when visitors walk by?
John Long

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G3750
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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:13 am

MYmoo wrote:George,
Excellent work on the bridge and piers!
-----

Should've commented on these pics when you posted them, I did not, I trust it's not too late now...
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:58 pm
download/file.php?id=9622

These 'might' be a contributary factor to you having 'issues'
with the DZ- product line, and/or operation with TMCC.

The use of 'suitcase' connectors is a {almost} certain guarantee
that you will have continuing electrical 'issues' down the line,
which most often get 'blamed' on something else.

As you know, (or should...) :
'suitcase' connectors physically destroy the wire
upon installation, by cutting thru the insulation and conductor(s),
reducing the current carrying capacity,
introducing a high resistance heat generating connection,
and/or a poor, or non-connection, in a low current situation.

Suitcase connectors should NOT be used with stranded wiring,
as they completely sever many strands of the wire.
These severed strands may act like:
a resistor, inductor, capacitor, transformer, transmitter, antenna,
dependent upon physical characteristics of the wire,
and woltage, current, frequency of signals/data.
Not good. :(

Used on a solid (one strand) conductor, they will slice the conductor by 50 percent or more.
Also un-good, :( for the reasons noted above.
The closest analogy would be a one lane only construction zone on a four lane Interstate during rush hour.
Electrons act like humans under similiar circumstances...(or should I say, humans act like electrons...)???...
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:58 pm
download/file.php?id=9623

Looped wiring under the table will also give you 'unique experiences' when employed in RF and giga-hertz (read command control) circuitry.

Another analogy, ...round-abouts/traffic circles used on some intersections and freeway interchanges around the country.
Yery definately confusing encounter for the out-of-towner, ...electron or human.


Myron, thank you for your comments on the bridge and piers.

Well I must say that your information on the suitcase connectors is very disconcerting as I have used them extensively on both switch buses. I'm really not very enthusiastic about re-wiring the whole she-bang, especially as it was all working prior to the addition of the last 5 switches. And Switch Bus #1 continues to work.

So, this is what I'm going to do.
1) I will keep this post in mind in case next steps fail.
2) I will proceed in my search for the 1 or more malfunctioning switch machines as this seems the more probable cause.
3) I will eliminate suitcase connectors from all future wiring considerations.

Thanks,

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

—Katy Faust

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Roy
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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby Roy » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:11 pm

...
Last edited by Roy on Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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G3750
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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby G3750 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:40 pm

Roy wrote:George, As to your ability to determine probable cause, I think you might be well advised to put down the wiring. You've benefited greatly from folks here spotting some of your wiring "tricks", yet, you don't seem to assimilate the multifarious implications. Think of all the money you saved by not 3D printing those bridge piers, and pay someone qualified to wire your choo-choo. When your home doesn't burn down, be grateful.


Gee Roy, thanks so much for the vote of confidence. The fact that my railroad has run effectively since 2007 shouldn't change your opinion. Neither should the fact that circuit breakers and fuses abound and NONE have fired in those years. And the house didn't burn down, either. Should I also return my NMRA Electrical Achievement Award?

PS. FOAD
Last edited by G3750 on Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

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Re: What's New on the PRR Panhandle Division?

Postby webenda » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:00 am

G3750 wrote:Well I must say that your information on the suitcase connectors is very disconcerting as I have used them extensively on both switch buses. I'm really not very enthusiastic about re-wiring the whole she-bang, especially as it was all working prior to the addition of the last 5 switches. And Switch Bus #1 continues to work.

So, this is what I'm going to do.
1) I will keep this post in mind in case next steps fail.
2) I will proceed in my search for the 1 or more malfunctioning switch machines as this seems the more probable cause.
3) I will eliminate suitcase connectors from all future wiring considerations.

Thanks,

George

George,

Don't believe everything you are told. Properly sized suitcase connectors only scratch the wire to break through the oxide layer. Properly designed suitcase connectors squeeze the heck out of the wire to maintain good electrical contact. They also work with stranded wire. To quote Molex, "In the case of stranded wire, the design zone typically represents the most mechanically stable region of the loading curve where good contact is made to as many strands as possible without severely damaging individual strands."

Image
Reference: http://www.molex.com/tnotes/idtbm.html

The only way to confirm or reject what Roy says is to do a tear down on a suitcase connection--as I did on this crimp connector.

Image

As you can see in the last image, the crimp squeezed the heck out of the wire making it appear to be one with the crimp connector. Some people say the wire has been "cold welded" to the crimp connector.

Edit 1: Was, "tear down on a text connection"; should be, " tear down on a suitcase connection."

P.S. I should know better than to post things at 7:00 AM Tucson time. I got up early to pull weeds before it got too hot. Right now (12:22 PM) it is 84 °F in the shade.
Last edited by webenda on Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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