Hobo Jungle

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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:28 pm

J. S. Bach wrote:
Rufus T. Firefly wrote:To the best of my knowledge, there are no positron emitters of medical application that are also fissionable, :mrgreen:


Fashionable? :wink:


There are fashionable ones - those that cyclotron operators can make. Anything that can be made by them is something that they automatically label as "novel" and "useful", while what they really mean is please use this so I can get more funding whether or not it is actually useful, novel, or better than anything previously available.

Fissionables go boom, :lol: Generally not useful in medical applications, although that is not 100% true, :wink: :wink: I could send you a copy of a publication that related the use of unranium neutron capture therapy to treat cancer.
What if lollipops moaned every time we licked them?

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rogruth
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby rogruth » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:38 pm

Has anybody in this jungle heard anything about Tramp recently?

I don't think we have heard from him here in some time.
roger

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webenda
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby webenda » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:12 am

Lupinus sparsiflorus
Image

The flower shape has inspired common names such as bluebonnets and quaker bonnets. The fruit is a pod containing several seeds. The legume seeds of lupins, commonly called lupin beans, are sold in a salty solution in jars and can be eaten with or without the skin.
Reference: http://fooducopia.com/product-1580-cali ... beans.html

Wait a minute, "Everything in the Sonoran Desert is designed to impale, cripple or kill you." The lupin beans consumed as food are from different species of lupin. The Lupinus sparsiflorus plant growing in the Sonoran Desert, and most especially its beans, are poisonous, containing high levels of toxic quinolizidine alkaloids including lupinine and sparteine. People who eat Lupinus sparsiflorus beans suffer from blurry vision, dry mouth, confusion, palpitations, flushing and fever.
Reference: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/816548-overview

There are many hazards in the Hobo Jungle.
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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healey36
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby healey36 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:29 am

Great pic Wayne...I always get lupin and foxglove mixed up...

"Look, I happen to know this is the Lupin Express":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLkhx0eqK5w

Healey

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webenda
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby webenda » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:25 pm

Funny response Healy. :lol:

Spelling: Lupin (EU), Lupine (US).

Probably shouldn't eat foxglove (Common name: Foxglove, Scientific name: Digitalis species) either. Depending on the species, the plant may contain several deadly physiological and chemically related cardiac and steroidal glycosides. The foxglove plants have earned several, more sinister, names: dead man’s bells and witch's gloves.

The entire plant is toxic (including the roots and seeds). Early symptoms of ingestion include nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, abdominal pain, wild hallucinations, delirium, and severe headache. Depending on the severity of the toxicosis, the victim may later suffer irregular and slow pulse, tremors, various cerebral disturbances, especially of a visual nature (unusual color visions (see xanthopsia) with objects appearing yellowish to green, and blue halos around lights), convulsions, and deadly disturbances of the heart. Vincent van Gogh paintings may have been influenced by digitalis therapy which, at the time, was thought to control seizures.

They talked about tree leaves in Lupin Express, but not flower leaves. Foxglove and Lupines have distinctly different leaves, the Foxglove having a simple leaf and the Lupines having a palmate leaf. The leaves in Lupin Express were palmate. Leaves are a good way to differentiate between similar looking flowers. Here is an image of the leaf found on the lupine I pictured above.
Image

The Hobo Jungle can be a dangerous place if you do not know your plant pharmacology.
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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healey36
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby healey36 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:09 pm

Thanks for the info Wayne. My father was quite the gardener and I recall him growing both lupin and foxglove. I seem to remember him telling me that foxglove, while potentially lethal if mishandled, was used in some heart medications. The plant was pretty spectacular in the second year...they typically bloomed with tall stalks of drooping flowers that the bees and humming birds went crackers for (they must have been immune to the cardiac effect). The lupin had leaves similar to the wild variety you pictured, although I don't recall that fuzzy appearance. Brings back alot of memories of the Old Man studying the seed catalogs every winter, preparing for spring.

Healey

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webenda
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby webenda » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:00 am

That is interesting your father grew foxglove. Sounds like that area of the garden was spectacularly beautiful.

Hairy leaves is one of the identifiers for Desert Lupine. Other species have naked leaves.

Digoxin is derived from the leaves of a digitalis (foxglove) plant. Digoxin medication works directly on the heart muscle to strengthen and regulate the heartbeat. You cannot medicate yourself by collecting and eating Desert Lupine beans. The dosage would be totally unknown and different in every bean.

Digoxin Side Effects: Diarrhea, loss of appetite, drowsiness, headache, muscle weakness, and fatigue may occur as your body adjusts to the medication. Inform your doctor if you develop: confusion, visual disturbances (blurred vision or yellow/green halos around objects), fast/slow/irregular heartbeat, skin rash, breast enlargement, severe stomach upset.

The side effects are not a surprise, they are the same ones listed as symptoms for digitalis poisoning.

OVERDOSE: If overdose is suspected, contact your local poison control center or emergency room immediately.

Medication from poison?

http://health.howstuffworks.com/medicin ... dicine.htm
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:09 am

webenda wrote: Medication from poison?


All you have to do to appreciate the toxicity side effects of medications is to listen to the commercial on television....

Most (if not all...) oncology drugs have significant toxicity above the efficacy windows...
What if lollipops moaned every time we licked them?

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sarge
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby sarge » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:46 am

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
webenda wrote: Medication from poison?


All you have to do to appreciate the toxicity side effects of medications is to listen to the commercial on television....

Most (if not all...) oncology drugs have significant toxicity above the efficacy windows...


I can really go off on the Unholy Triumvirate in this country (the insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, and the medical community). There was a time when a doctor would seek the cause of a condition and treat it. Now, they band together in an assembly line, crank through the poor, the aged, and the innocent, and roll chemistry at the symptoms with no intent of seeking or treating the cause. Keep 'em on the hook until they die or are destitute, hopefully at the same time.

There was a time when a doctor worthy of the name could set a kid's arm. Now the GP sends him to an ortho who sets it and casts it, then off to a physical therapy group all the while rolling obscenely priced chemistry which turns the kid into some sort of Mr. Hyde for life because the parent was too over-awed by parchment to question these thieves who then bill insurance companies in funny-money which is never really exchanged unless it can be taken from the poor ****** in court after the insurance company abandons him or her.

Now we have this truly hideous government participation in the USA that no-one understands but the Triumvirate certainly lobbied to be worded to their great advantage which now allows the insurance industry to latch on the federal tit as well.

Meanwhile, "ask your doctor about so-and-suchae for your moderate-to-severe psoriasis. Most insurance plans will accept the cost for a little while then you can pay the some-thousands of dollars per refill yourself, contract hepatitis, leukemia, or lymphoma if you live long enough because your immune system will be severely compromised (your doctor will be happy to treat the symptoms of these effects on a scheduled assembly-line basis; co-pay's expected before services rendered), but when you die your skin will look marvelous."

One only has to watch this in action and see someone absolutely cleaned out by this system so they are out in the street with absolutely nothing, then hounded to suicide by the Triumvirate after being made totally destitute, to loathe the lot of them.

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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:07 am

sarge wrote: I can really go off on the Unholy Triumvirate in this country (the insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, and the medical community). There was a time when a doctor would seek the cause of a condition and treat it. Now, they band together in an assembly line, crank through the poor, the aged, and the innocent, and roll chemistry at the symptoms with no intent of seeking or treating the cause. Keep 'em on the hook until they die or are destitute, hopefully at the same time.


You left out the legalists.

Unfortunately in many ways you are totally correct regarding the lack of intent to cure - they'd much rather reduce your ailment to a chronic state and put you on as many pills or shots that it takes to keep you there forever. The war on cancer was abandoned for this very scenario -- it's too hard to cure, so we'll stop fighting and give you a pill every day that makes money for everybody..... Sad thing is that it's also a failed paradigm based upon what superficially was hailed as a great advance in research - "molecular targets". On the surface a very attractive concept until you realize it can't actually deliver cures. It does deliver a lot of funding and publications and clinical trial "successes", but nothing more than reduction of disease to a static state as an arm of money making business.

This is one of the reasons I'll be retiring in the near future. It's hard to keep my silence and gorge in place while these self-serving "researchers" around me hand out awards and slap each other on the back celebrating more worthless published achievements when they could be trying to do something worthwhile instead of making more lines on their resumes and more pages in a journal that no one will read 3 years from now.

There was a time when a doctor worthy of the name could set a kid's arm. Now the GP sends him to an ortho who sets it and casts it, then off to a physical therapy group all the while rolling obscenely priced chemistry which turns the kid into some sort of Mr. Hyde for life because the parent was too over-awed by parchment to question these thieves who then bill insurance companies in funny-money which is never really exchanged unless it can be taken from the poor ****** in court after the insurance company abandons him or her.


See legalist..........

It is fun however to ask questions of the MD or whatever when you are at their office that reveals that you just might know more than they do about what's in vial.

Now we have this truly hideous government participation in the USA that no-one understands but the Triumvirate certainly lobbied to be worded to their great advantage which now allows the insurance industry to latch on the federal tit as well.


Hardly anything recent or new, and has been fully active for decades. Just seeing a bit more of this demon peeking out from behind the curtain.....

Meanwhile, "ask your doctor about so-and-suchae for your moderate-to-severe psoriasis. Most insurance plans will accept the cost for a little while then you can pay the some-thousands of dollars per refill yourself, contract hepatitis, leukemia, or lymphoma if you live long enough because your immune system will be severely compromised (your doctor will be happy to treat the symptoms of these effects on a scheduled assembly-line basis; co-pay's expected before services rendered), but when you die your skin will look marvelous."


I do find that a risk of death to cure (?) - more likely just treat forever :roll: my toenail fungus just a little over the top. They really need to ban all those medications advertisements.
What if lollipops moaned every time we licked them?

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webenda
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby webenda » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:56 am

The Triumvirate being healthcare providers, insurance companies and pharmaceutical industry?
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:06 am

webenda wrote:The Triumvirate being healthcare providers, insurance companies and pharmaceutical industry?


With the lawyers hiding behind the curtain......playing cards with the politicians......
What if lollipops moaned every time we licked them?

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sarge
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby sarge » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:17 am

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
...the legalists.


Oh, yes.

The right-wing legalists paid off by the Triumvirate to stir the right against anything like an NHS because it's "socialist". The ones who fear an NHS of some sort the most are the Triumvirate itself, for the insurance companies and that whole false economy would be cut out completely, whilst pharmaceuticals and the medical community would be suddenly answerable as a public utility.

Oh, but cleverly enough, the Triumvirate also pays off the left-wing legalists such that anything remotely like health care for the masses includes the insurance companies not only as they were previously, but invites them to the federal trough to drink deep of the draught as equal partners alongside their friends the pharmaceuticals and medicals.

Indeed a perfect example of the left and the right together in rapturous embrace, whilst appealing to the honest emotions of both ends of the American political spectrum, to preserve their ability to absolutely loot and rape the very people who honestly and vehemently stand hard right or hard left. You have to admire them, for they can do it using the diametrically opposed emotions of both to achieve the same end. It's a brilliant hoodwinking of all.

And just to make sure you can't get out of the game until they have every last dime you ever made, whether you are a rugged right-wing individualist or an Abby Hoffman Socialist, aided suicide is illegal in the USA. :D :D

What a set-up, the effing geniuses!

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rogruth
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby rogruth » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:44 am

Rufus,Sarge,Wayne.

WELL!!! Wake up time.
What to do?Who do you trust?
I am almost to the place of not knowing what to do.

I was in a doctors office recently when a person with
out insurance tried to pay for their total office visit with
cash,check or credit card and that was not acceptable.
I could not hear the reason given when the patient
asked why not.
roger

I support thread drift.
If God didn't want women to be looked at, He would have made 'em ugly. RAH

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sarge
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby sarge » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:43 pm

rogruth wrote:Rufus,Sarge,Wayne.

WELL!!! Wake up time.
What to do?Who do you trust?
I am almost to the place of not knowing what to do.


Roger, mate

The terrible truth is you cannot blanket-trust any of them any more as professions.

The only thing I can suggest is to take charge of your own circumstances, treat the medical people you interface with as your employees rather than trust them to tell you what you should comply with, and manage your affairs for yourself.

Educate yourself and listen to your own body. The days of the trustworthy doctor being on your side are now over in the USA. It is up to you to take charge of your health and, if the health care professional of choice doesn't want to hear you, run (do not walk) to the nearest exit. You can't trust the profession, but you can trust the individual who might earn that trust.

The Hippocratic ideal has been replaced with collective greed, untrammelled even by law as the only code of ethical behaviour, as the business model. Until law brings them to heel, it's up to you to find those you can trust and to maintain a relationship of the employer with those few you can find who merit any trust whatsoever.

Avoid any health-care type who only rolls pills at symptoms. He is feeding the maw of the pharmaceutical industry, not "doctoring". Run away.

Avoid any practise that will not fight for every advantage to you regarding insurance claim. If they won't spend the time to file and file properly on your behalf, what chance do they stand of spending the time to provide care worthy of the name (beyond perhaps keeping you alive long enough to clean you out)?

As far as the legalists (that would be lawyers and politicians of any stripe) I can't help you there.


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