Why isn't O Scale 2-Rail more popular with model railroaders?

[bob turner]

I think it is just in our genes to want to proselytize. I do it with Piper Cubs. I have seen absolute fanatics in Proto-48. People are willing to kill each other over their relative religious beliefs, even among various Christian sects. Just ignore it and press on.
Maybe Arnold is right on this one - if you really need to grow the hobby, buy stuff.

[sarge]

If by Arnold you mean the guy who goes by "Publisher CEO", he's part the problem. Trying to insulate the sponsors from deserved criticism, condescending, and refutably wrong in so many ways in the process. I know him from dick, but its clear he's never been in the scale industry.

The poster before him had it right. You want the scale to grow, insist on product on par (fidelity, performance, and compatibility) with the competition so a newcomer's choices are made for reasons of each scale's merit as a medium.

I happened to have dabbled in the particular importer's product in question that the poster who goes under DiSanti was talking about. He is absolutely objectively correct in his assessment. On the one I received, the paint color is wrong, the lettering not correct, manufactured missing a stanchion on one side. I can accept an error in small detail when touting one's range as having "road-specific details", but the tank is totally wrong for the road in question. That is haemorrhoid-obvious and indicative of either ludicrously poor research and follow-through or (more likely) the three-rail market won't care about the fidelity as much as other value-criteria; lights, sound, shiny, durability.

Of this list of shortcomings (and there are more), what would have cost more to do right as Mr CEO asserts? Perhaps the tank, though I suspect that it was a conscious decision to accommodate the speaker. When the speaker dictates whether the tank is correct or not, this ceases to be a model and becomes a toy. Three-rail value criteria therefore trump scale-modelling criteria in O today, and I rest my case in that highly charged accusation.

The model in question is typical, being lit with LEDs, DCC and sound as standard, and its very pretty. It also is very solidly made and, giving it its due, under all the electronics that make it flash, burr, and whiz like Robbie the Robot, there lurks a decent drive unlike their east coast competition. Compared to the smaller competition, though, its toylike. The lighting too bright, the sound too loud and fake, too shiny, lots of details without discernment as to the right details, too busy attracting attention to itself to blend into a train or a layout. In other words, arguably tinplate.

Its not cheap, either, and herein lies the rub. You are paying for someone else's choice of electronics forced upon you rather than having a "without" choice offered for those who prefer battery or conventional (and, horrors, silence) or a preferred decoder/speaker arrangement. One would think the current thinking in O is actually more limiting of product appeal given the pricing today, even though the choice seems to be an economically sound approach offered in the smaller scales (rather than, somehow, a choice between three-rails and one set of electronics versus two-rail and a different set of electronics?)

I probably won't buy another as things stand today, especially now that prices are comparable to brass. I can do the same amount of work on a brass diesel instead; correcting paint and lettering vs. paint from bare brass, redetailing versus detailing, replacing versus installing my choice of control tech. I still come out with a better model with more finesse of details (unless I go "behind scratch" and start doing things like replacing the robust handrails with some of proper cross-section and stanchion count) for the money.

But what of the new guy or the RTR guy? I look at brass as my option and will happily go there. He/she will look at HO and happily go there. DiSantis has a valid point, and OGR CEO Publisher guy with his "it is not your place to criticise the sponsors' product, but it is your responsibility to support them by buying whatever effluvia drips out of the pipe" is not.

It's too late to fix the damage wrought by the infliction of three-rail value criteria on us by the RTR importers, thus dooming the filet mignon we were just starting to enjoy from the likes of Intermountain, Red Caboose, and San Juan to be withdrawn from the menu in favour of the slabs of meatloaf from MTH and Atlas at comparable prices. Those who changed OSR to OGR feel they can dictate our priorities and aims such that they fit those of the hirail industry rather than the other way around. The only choice for us is to accept it or ignore it.

Chris, you are absolutely right. I choose the latter, thus I cannot care whether more newcomers consider the scale other than opening my layout for them to see and operate, showing models here, and otherwise welcoming them to join me how I choose to enjoy my hobby. Beyond that is not my scope and certainly not my responsibility.

Sorry, "OGR CEO Publisher".

[Rufus T. Firefly]

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[herronpeter]

Being "too hard" is what appeals to me! To get the locomotives I wanted I had to learn how to deal with 2nd hand brass. This included getting them running well, often changing motors and drive lines. Painting and lettering them (many re-strips and re-paints) Installing decoders and LED lighting. Weathering. I am a bit of a lone wolf with few modeling friends who appreciate my efforts so it’s mainly I compete against myself. My neighbor was looking over the layout and he finally realized just how much work I put into it when I explained that every tie was stained by me, placed on the layout by me ballasted by me and all the turnouts were built by me. The only time any non model railroader is impressed with sound and light installs is if I show them pictures of all the wires involved and the speaker installs.

My only modeling friend does RTR HO Maerklin with lots of track and switches, no scenery, and loves running different train sets around. He has over 150 locomotives! He’s what I call a "running collector"!

Long live 2 rail O scale!

Peter

[sarge]

All too true, but high quality HO is not altogether cheaper than O.

Actually a bit of a myth. Piece for piece (which is the only quantifiable comparison; the rest of those arguments are apples and oranges), modern RTR HO, though retaining higher standards for fidelity, performance, and compatibility as their clientele require, is not as expensive by far, yet remember the assembly is just as complex so the labour costs must be similar, material costs are a bit less, tooling has to be similar, and I can't say what the run size is other than folks like Bowser are marketing on a pre-order basis identical to the importer DiSanti used as an example.

Bowser currently is taking pre-order for a Phase 3 RS-3 at 199.95MSRP DC/DCC-ready and 299.95MSRP DCC/Sound equipped. A Broadway Limited GP20, top of the line and again of comparable ilk, is taking pre-order at $370. The model used in DiSanti's example is a recent import of a comparable four-motor roadswitcher, MSRP was near as made no difference $700 and a second run is taking reservations at $770.

Compare current Atlas freight cars to modern HO freight cars and a similar story is told.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

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[E7]

Space requirements, cost, and availability, as compared to HO and N. As an old ex-O Scaler friend used to say: "The bigger the better."

My first "O Scale" purchase was a collection of the late "O Scale News 48/ft". Looking through them, I decided that there was enough stuff (Transition Era) available in my area of interest, and have never looked back.

I was not aware of the minor gauge discrepancy for a couple years, nor do I give a sh*t about it. Actually the gauge is perfect, and everything else is wrong! If that .008 bothers you. go for P48. I don't buy 3 rail stuff and convert it. My way of supporting 2 rail. Would I do it all over again?
Absolutely not!

MOSTLY OPINION!

[bob turner]

How is this topic so popular? Are we happier discussing this than we are actual models?

[sarge]

Ok, so I'm hearing $70+ freight cars and more from those HO modelers that I know that are the meticulous accuracy types as opposed to the trash and bash Ops guys, so as with all things something for all tastes; HO resin kits selling well over $100. What are the Atlas toy cars priced at and what are new O scale resin kits priced at......and yesterday at Strasburg you could pick up very nice O scale resin kit cars for under $50....that I sort of regret not capturing......but I have too much work to do now, and still too much to sell.

But for all those wringing their hands over O scale, Strasburg demonstrated a lot of health in the hobby and scale. My sales at Harrisburg 3 weeks earlier were surprisingly proportionally better.

I've got stuff to build and work to do now.

If you don't compare new with new, like with like, (Atlas Master line O boxcar well north of a $80 per, Atlas HO Master line boxcar $36 both as of June 2021, for example) you can say whatever you want. Same with MSRP with MSRP. You can't compare used thirty year old against brand new just off the boat and call your conclusion valid if you ignore any pretence of normalising your data.

Myth is myth; can't have it both ways.

[sarge]

How is this topic so popular? Are we happier discussing this than we are actual models?

In some ways its on you, Bob. You started in on OGR with your "banned" thread, then Chris Webster merely moved a side-thought from there to this one. GRIN!

[up148]

I think this post/warning by OGR CEO-Publisher speaks volumes for the quality of many members. If you don't have enough sense to post to the right forum, I think there is little hope for you in 2R.

Kinda scary OGR reads every post and then moves it if not in the forum where they think it belongs.

Guys....please do your best to post in the most logical forum based on the MAIN subject/topic of your post. We have been spending many hours each week moving posts that are in forums that are obviously not where they should be.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

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[up148]

Or much hope in any other area for that matter...... I was talking to someone at the Strasburg meet who was appalled/disgusted by the lack of basic literacy, grammar, and spelling on OGR.

It seems to be an epidemic on most forums. I belong to a corvette forum and although there are quite a few guys with BA's & ME's (more than I expected), there are quite a few who write as if they never completed grammar school. It's embarrasses me, for them.

I'm not a good speller and try to watch it closely..........wife and kids are exceptional spellers, so it's like living with many on this forum who have an excellent grasp of grammar and spelling. Rufus and Sarge are always making me look up words.

Break for Brake
Quit for Quite
Greese for Grease
Weel for Wheel

[bob turner]

Don't forget walla and low and behold.

If all of this is partly my fault, maybe let me know how to get some interest in SP steam or flat cars. I could post a link to some stuff I posted in OGR, and we could be off to two pages of commentary on doorstops or something.

In my "banned" thread, I mention that I am often in agreement with Arnold, even on copyright topics. Martin's assessment of the guy aside (Martin is insightful) he does have a point. Our market is incredibly small - the only way for it to get bigger is for folks to buy stuff.

But I personally am happy with a smaller niche - 17/64 is just fine for maybe ten of us, and I personally don't care if we ever get to eleven.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

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