KEY v/s Lionel "scale" F3's.

[up148]

Back in 2002-3 I bought an ABA set of Lionel "scale" F3's. The models impressed me when I saw them in a magazine ad and once received they stood up well next to some KEY F3's I had at the time. I immediately sent them to Joe Foehrkolb (Baldwin Forge and Machinery) to be 2R'd and then pretty much put them away, except for the dummy "A" unit that I wanted to add a freight pilot and other improvements.

Flash forward 20+ years and I've been thinking of selling just an A/B set of these locos, as the dummy "A" unit will be worth more to me than anyone else.

So, I dug them out today and took these photos and now I'm scratching my head again about selling them. F3's are my favorite diesel and these have to be some of the most accurate non-brass F3's on the planet............and they still stand up well against the KEY's. Lionel knocked it out of the park IMHO.

So, I decided to post photos and get some comments, opinions and feedback.

[Pacific Limited]

I like them both for different reasons. I have several 88-89 Samhongsa F units, they are spectacular and better in many ways especially in the sculpt area than the later Keys done at FMT. All in all, all the models are great in thier own ways. I prefer the Samhongsa it has a filigree that is hard to match on the Lionel. You know neither are cheap anymore. So price points dont matter.

My Samhongsa DRGW Bumblebees are my absolute favorite F units in my collection.
[url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2rHijgW][/url]O scale D&RGW EMD F7 5554 by Erik C Lindgren Fine Art, on Flickr[/url]

[bob turner]

Windshield area is better on the Lionel.

The PA was like that - really accurate! If I did plastic, the Lionel PA would be the only one here. The one caveat - trucks are maybe not as good as those you get with brass imports. They are still pretty good.

Some of the steam might be that way too - I have a Lionel FEF on a fabricated frame, USH drivers, and specially cast side rods. Better detailed than USH.

[Pacific Limited]

Windshield area is better on the Lionel.

Yawn, I disagree.. depending on viewing angle the Samhongsa is hands down far better.

[url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2rGXWxh][/url]Yampa Valley Mail by Erik C Lindgren Fine Art, on Flickr[/url]

[url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2scbFZB][/url]IMG_0513 by Erik C Lindgren Fine Art, on Flickr[/url]
Prototype


[url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2scaRmZ][/url]IMG_0512 by Erik C Lindgren Fine Art, on Flickr[/url]
O scale model

[url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2scaRmU][/url]IMG_0511 by Erik C Lindgren Fine Art, on Flickr[/url]
Prototype

[bob turner]

So Key is Samhongsa?

Thanks for the Flickr link - really nice photos. The single stripe has a bad forehead, and strange number boards. I was just comparing Butch's photos, and stand by my evaluation. EMD windshields are really difficult to do well.

[up148]

KEY was the high water mark for E and F unit models in my opinion and I agree with Erik that the Samhongsa built model have a more accurate nose than the later FM or non-identified builder of KEY units. I also agree with Bob that the windshields on the Lionel is every bit as good as the KEY's. One item that might make a visual difference is that Lionel outlined the WS in black to resemble the gasket and KEY did not. Also, Lionel included the rivet detail on the nose grabs......I think KEY included that feature on later builds. I found a lot of little body details that Lionel incorporated into these models that were missing on earlier brass models. But, it was built almost 2 decades later. Brass will always be the models I love, but these Lionel's are something special.

Lionel modeled the "as delivered" raised rood fans while the KEY was the later installed lowered roof fans. Road number 901 was in the first batch of "F" units delivered to the UP and was bought for passenger service, but with the advent of the "E" units a few years later, "F" units wee relegated to freight service. I prefer F units with the freight pilot and that's the reason I changed mine......now I have to find the correct color of Harbor Mist Gray to match it up.

I'll post some close-ups of the truck side frames. Up close it's really impressive how good the cast Lionel trucks are to the brass KEY trucks. If memory serves me they are a little wider spaced, but all 3R models built for 2R rail use suffer from this. Atlas, 3rd Rail, MTH, etc.

[up148]

As mentioned, here are some truck only photos for comparison. The paint on the Lionel is too thick and hides some of the detail like the holes in the slack adjuster.

But, no doubt about it, the KEY trucks are much nicer in respect to detail and fit and finish. Just noticed the inboard end of slack adjuster has come lose from the post. These trucks are just so delicate and a misplace finger does a lot of damage.

[Pacific Limited]

[url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2sbkBpJ][/url]New Power at Rainbow Cut by Erik C Lindgren Fine Art, on Flickr[/url] Bumblebee in F7


Bumblebee in FT

[up148]

IIRC, KEY used Samhongsa during one of the most prolific period of their importing, while OMI went with AJIN......I think both builders had their strengths and weaknesses and AJIN built some stellar models. But, when it came to the nose contour of E and F units, I think many modelers/collectors consider Samhongsa to be the all time best.

KEY was selling factory painted E and F diesel models in the mid 80's, while OMI was struggling with poor nose contours, crooked number boards, funky headlights, unpainted models and poor soldering on some models.

The Samhongsa E and F units that came in A/B sets in the single box are considered the best nose contours, whereas the later KEY builders used a single box for each loco. Although the later models have better detailing, better drives and more, many consider the nose contour of the Samhongsa models to be the best.

This is just my recollection and others may be able to correct and/or fill in the blanks.

[E7]

I guess I'm just a "Brasshole" (old joke from waaaay back on this board, LOL) but to me, Samhongsa pretty much nailed the F's and E's. The re-formed remnants of Samhongsa, "Sam Model Tech", (guess they are still out there) had access to the legendary machine that was used to form the Samhongsa noses, and some of the later stuff by them looked pretty good to me. In MY OPINION, Lionel doesn't even belong in the discussion, but then I already 'fessed up to being a Brasshole! All said, my preference is Samhongsa.

Ajin Precision (OMI) did many nice things, but their F's were NO comparison to Sam's.

I think Boo Rim did some HO stuff that looked pretty decent, but I never saw any of it up close and personal.

As best I am aware, all but the F9 and E9 had backward tilt of the headlight (they were vertical).

The real world units had a lot of bondo used in their shaping. There are photos of EMD workers with grinders contouring them.

And that's the truth! LOL!

Rich

PS: Some GREAT pics, guys!

[up148]

Well Rich, no can ever accuse you of holding back on opinions. I said KEY is superior to the Lionel is all ways, but the Lionel is so close to a KEY (shell wise) that it needed to be seen. That's the reason for posting photos and comparisons.

I do intend to finish the dummy unit and I'll put it behind the KEY AB and I'll bet all but rivet counters and brass holes will not see the difference. Also, for what I have invested I'm not afraid to learn diesel weathering on it. The KEY units are NIB and to do an amateur weathering job would be a mortal sin.

But, lets not get into weathering, because I know you hate the weathered look more than plastic models.

Good to have your comments and you always knew more about Samhongsa, Sam Tech and other builders than I did.

Quit being a stranger we can use the posts.

Hey, can I sell you a really nice Lionel F unit.

[bob turner]

I stay away from plastic models for the same reason that I don't collect stamps. Not interested. However, the detail that can be obtained for relative cheap in plastic injection models is superior to most other ways of doing things. I really prefer sand cast brass, but have several built-up brass PAs.

Jim Seacrest had me do some Lionel PAs using Overland mechanisms - the detail on those plastic bodies, and the capture of the nose contour and windshield, will take a back seat to no one. But I do not want to have a Lionel PA, even if it has Overland trucks and gears.

So, same with these F units. Yeah, those are superb. But no - I have only sand cast and die cast EMDs, and as of right now I would sooner part with my All Nation units than I would the Adams models.

That is what a hobby is all about - we get to do it any way we want.

[up148]

That is what a hobby is all about - we get to do it any way we want.

Completely agree with that statement. Trust me, until the last 20+ years, my thinking was that plastic was only for rolling stock, never for locos or cabooses. I was a right git brass snob or brass-a-holic about it. BTW, for those who don't know, Rich knows I'm winding him up on this topic as I've know about his brass model preference for decades.

I'm still obsessed with brass models, but when I seen a non-brass model that ticks most of the boxes, I have to think/say well done.

3rd Rail is the leader of the pack with their O scale, not totally brass diesels, IMHO.

[E7]

Are we having fun yet? You bet!

Wish the "Brasshole" guy was still around. His image was second to none.

Buy what you LIKE!

Rich

[Pacific Limited]

Some fun research and development stuff at BooRim in 2018
[url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2scxNbq][/url]Untitled-1 by Erik C Lindgren Fine Art, on Flickr[/url]
[url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2scstcx][/url]Untitled-1 by Erik C Lindgren Fine Art, on Flickr[/url]