Smoke Lifters

[Chris Webster]

2) Success varied. Some railroads just didn't bother and those that did (NYC for example) found them effective enough only on select classes and applications. As an example, justifiable on L3, L4, and S on NYC, but not on Hudsons in like service.

I'm not a NYC expert -- I just grew up in the Mohawk valley -- but my recollection is that NYC's smoke lifter equipped locomotives were built after the Hudsons. (In other words, the first L3 was built after the final NYC Hudson was built.) So my impression is that the NYC decided that smoke lifters were worthwhile on new locomotives, but were not worth retrofitting onto existing locomotives.

Anyone know when the Nickel Plate installed smoke lifters on their hudsons?

[sarge]

The late L's were indeed built after the Hudsons. However, L3 and L4 were also built without deflectors and ran that way through the war. The first Niagara was also built without. Deflectors are pretty much a postwar thing on NYC, and met some success retrofitted on the late Ls and spec'd on the production Niagaras after experiments on 6000.

They were not put on Hudsons simply because they made no appreciable difference; Central had no compunction about retrofitting the late Mohawks because they did make enough of a difference.

[up148]

I forgot about Europe and WWII and I'll bet that is a big factor. They certainly had little time or money to spend on diesels.

[Chris Webster]

Speaking of smoke lifter equipped Mohawks:

The Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society announced Wednesday that it had acquired New York Central L-3a “Mohawk” 3001 and planned to restore the 4-8-2 locomotive to operation for use on its popular Indiana Rail Experience excursions.

The 3001 is the largest surviving NYC steam locomotive and the only member of the L3a class to escape the scrapper’s torch. The locomotive was previously owned by the City of Elkhart, Ind., and has been on display at the National New York Central Museum for decades.

FWRHS owns three other steam locomotives, most notably Nickel Plate Road 2-8-4 765, which it has operated since the 1970s. For the last few years, it has managed the Indiana Rail Experience, an excursion operation on the Indiana Northeastern Railroad, which has trackage in Indiana, Ohio and Michigan. Much of that track is former NYC, meaning locomotive 3001 will be right at home. NYC 3001 will also join the fleet of seven Budd streamlined cars built in 1941 for the NYC “Empire State Express” and purchased from Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum in 2023.

While FWRHS made the announcement on Wednesday, the effort to acquire the locomotive dates back more than a year. The City of Elkhart approved the sale of 3001 in September 2023. Although the transaction was noted in publicly available documents, it was never widely shared. The deal includes locomotive 3001 and tender, plus an auxiliary tender. In return for the locomotive, the National New York Central Museum will receive a cash donation of $20,000; the City of Elkhart will receive help with creating a strategic plan for the future of the museum and its equipment; and the promise that when restored, FWRHS will do its best to bring 3001 back to Elkhart for a visit (although the deal notes that is entirely dependent on the engine being allowed to operate on Class I rails, specifically Norfolk Southern, which runs past the museum).

“We have been the stewards of the Mohawk for many years,” said Elkhart Mayor Rod Roberson in a press release. “Although we have had no shortage of pride and admiration for this historic machine, we lacked the expertise to be able to preserve it in the way it deserves. We are thrilled to be able to announce this partnership and a new life for the Mohawk.”

According to FWRHS, a mechanical evaluation of the locomotive has been performed by FMW Solutions with financial support from former Norfolk Southern CEO Wick Moorman. The group estimates that it will take $4.3 million to restore the locomotive to operation and FWRHS has issued a $100,000 challenge grant with the goal of raising $500,000 by May 3, 2025. Donations can be made online at AmericanLoco.org. FWRHS is also encouraging people to join its pledge list.

“Rather than manage an unknowable ebb and flow of contributions, we encourage backers to join our pledge list,” said FWRHS Executive Director Kelly Lynch. “We are planning pledge drives at the outset to meet our first critical fundraising milestones and to measure the feasibility of fundraising for such a massive project. The effort will not be able to move forward without broad and consistent donor support, which we believe we can forecast from the pledges. As much as this effort may be driven by emotion and history, it has to be driven by data and logic, too.”


“We treat this collaboration and the acquisition of the 3001 with great excitement and seriousness,” Lynch said of the effort to restore the Mohawk. “The locomotive’s future has been uncertain for decades, but with consistent and demonstrated donor support, we believe it can become a major attraction as part of an authentic and immersive experience that will welcome thousands of people from around the world.”

Source: Raifan & Railroad - New York Central 4-8-2 ‘Mohawk’ To Be Restored to Operation

[webenda]

“No other railroad has a wind tunnel”
--Union Pacific Senior Manager of Fuel Conservation Wayne Kennedy
Reference
: https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/in ... 7-2018.htm

[webenda]

Pictures are valuable when researching a subject. Notice the smoke flow in the UP wind tunnel. After hitting the engine's nose, the smoke is not deflected high into the wind. It clings to the locomotive. Why?

From wind tunnel testing of a flat plate (most steam locomotives have a flat plate at the front of the smoke box) we can draw wind streamlines based on how the smoke flows.

Wind tunnel test.


Drawing of streamlines hitting the flat plate.


We can also move a probe from a pressure meter around the object in a wind tunnel.
Here is a plot of pressure around a high-speed train shape.

Reference: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Air ... _235609076

Right behind the high pressure caused by the engine ramming into the air in front of the locomotive, there is a low pressure (vacuum) that continues along the entire train length.

In the case of the flat plate, the plate shoves the air in front out of the way leaving a low pressure behind the plate. High pressure from the front of the plate and atmospheric pressure around the plate move to fill in the low pressure behind the plate, moving the smoke with it.

It is the same for smoke and steam from a steam engine on the move. The smoke/steam is at atmospheric pressure shortly after leaving the smoke box. The atmosphere, filled with smoke and steam, moves down to fill the vacuum around the locomotive and its train of cars.

A note about vacuum, or low pressure.

A vacuum cleaner does not suck dirt in. It is the atmospheric pressure outside of the vacuum dust collection chamber that rushes in to fill the low pressure inside the vacuum collection chamber that blows the dust into the machine.

It is the same with low pressure around a moving locomotive. The vacuum does not suck the smoke down, higher pressure around the locomotive pushes the smoke into the vacuum surrounding the locomotive (and the train of cars behind the locomotive.)

[webenda]

As noted in a previous post:

The so-called smoke lifters or deflectors were not designed to "lift smoke". They were used to neutralize the vacuum effects ahead of the locomotive cab that occurred at speed, thus ensuring better visibility for the engine crew.
--Page 11 of Road Testing of the NIAGARAS by Richard W. Dawson

...the Sl's were equipped with... ...smoke lifters to prevent impairment of the crew's vision by drifting smoke...
--Page 13 of Road Testing of the NIAGARAS by Richard W. Dawson

Wind Wings on Union Pacific locomotives.
"Almost immediately after delivery in 1944, the 835-844 series (FEF-3 class) were seen as having smoke problems due to their twin exhaust stacks and lower stack exhaust velocity. In 1945, UP 840 was equipped with smoke lifters to help lift smoke for better visibility by the crews."
Reference: https://utahrails.net/up/steam-smoke-lifters.php

Union Pacific did a lot of experiments with wind wings. They ended up designing their own.



Union Pacific put the wind wings on where needed.
Big Boy


Source: https://utahrails.net/up/steam-smoke-lifters.php

FEF-3


You can see that UP's design started in front of the smokebox, where the highest air pressure in the entire train is located.
UP also extended the wind wings a long way back from the front, separating the high pressure from the low pressure so that the low pressure cannot immediately cancel out the high pressure.

[ScaleCraft]

Union Pacific put the wind wings on where needed.
Big Boy


Source: https://utahrails.net/up/steam-smoke-lifters.php

nice. 3900 series Big Boy.

[webenda]

“No other railroad has a wind tunnel”
--Union Pacific Senior Manager of Fuel Conservation Wayne Kennedy
Reference
: https://www.up.com/aboutup/community/in ... 7-2018.htm

The UP wind tunnel is interesting. How does it relate to the question, "Why do so few of USA steam locomotives have smoke lifters?"

UP is different from other railroads. They spend money on maintenance and improvements. After acquiring Southern Pacific UP did major maintenance on all of SP's track. Why? To improve profits. SP was having weekly derailments. UP hates anything that delays a train or fails to deliver for the customer. It eats into their profit. UP did rail grinding on all SP mainlines. Why? Properly shaped rail reduces rolling friction, saves fuel, and increases profits.

But why did UP use wind wings? To keep smoke from blocking the view of the engine crew from seeing signals and anything else that could cause an accident if it could not be seen. Oh yeah, to increase profits.

[webenda]

So, why did so few USA steam locomotives have smoke lifters, compared to the rest of the world?

I found out that smoke lifters do not work the way everyone thinks they work.

I found out they are a safety feature to avoid accidents.

I found out why some steam engines need them and some do not... it is all about chimney design and exhaust velocity.

I did not find the answer to the question, so, I will make another guess... ...I guess the USA had better chimneys.

[Johnbeere]

The term "wind wings" seems interesting to me - that's the same term used on pre-war cars for the accessory pieces of glass that deflected wind from the cabin, reducing wind noise and buffeting. Admittedly it probably wasn't the purpose of smoke lifters, but that term would've definitely implied a device to shield the cab from wind back in the day. I don't think that's the purpose of smoke lifters, but it's an interesting clue.

[robert.]

Is smoke hotter than air?

[webenda]

Is smoke hotter than air?

When it leaves a fire it is hotter than ambient air.
After being in the air for a while it cools down to the same temperature as ambient air.

Are you thinking that hot air and smoke should rise? It does until it cools off.


Source for image: https://blenderartists.org/t/steam-loco ... lp/1419524

[webenda]

Is smoke hotter than air?

When it leaves a fire it is hotter than ambient air.
After being in the air for a while it cools down to the same temperature as ambient air.

Are you thinking that hot air and smoke should rise? It does until it cools off.

So, if hot air/steam/smoke from a locomotive boiler rises, why does it cling to this locomotive?

The Empress 2816 is a 4-6-4 Hudson-type steam locomotive built by the Montreal Locomotive Works (MLW) in December 1930 for the Canadian Pacific Railway (CP)

[E7]

You're ALL wrong! It was the conservationists who nixed elephant ears. Hacking off all those poor critters ears was downright inhumane! And that's the truth! Apart from that, they looked KOOL! Can you imagine a Niagara without smoke lifters?

Rich