CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

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Re: "Crossroads of Commerce" joins the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby G3750 » Fri May 17, 2019 10:14 pm

chuck wrote:Sharks were in service between 1950-1953. The calendar is dated 1953 meaning it was printed in later part of 1952. Painting had to be done before then, late 1951 to early 1952. The passenger train heading towards the viewer looks like it's headed up by a Baldwin "baby face". The only trouble is the only Baldwin Babby face passenger units on the PRR were the centipedes and those don't look like centipedes. Artistic license on the part of the painter?


From Cupper’s book (I acquired a copy yesterday), I learned that Teller completed the painting in August 1952. The PRR always wanted to hand out calendars by Thanksgiving.

And yes, Teller took some criticism for the noses of the E8’s.

George
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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby G3750 » Mon May 20, 2019 9:46 pm

When I first heard about the reported demise of this painting, I was heartbroken. I thought that I had seen the painting more recently than 2014.

This past Saturday, while attending the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society annual meeting in Strasburg, I visited the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. There, hanging in its place in the Grif Teller exhibit on the 2nd floor, was the 1953 Crossroads of Commerce painting.

This morning I spoke with the museum's collection manager and she confirmed that the painting was the original and that the museum had negotiated with Ken Murry's estate and now is the owner.

Excellent news!!!! :!: :!: :!:

George
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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby rogruth » Mon May 20, 2019 10:13 pm

George,
That IS good to hear. Thank you.
roger

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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby MartyE » Wed May 22, 2019 1:24 pm

Closest I could get using Google Maps.

WV Stubenville.jpg
WV Stubenville.jpg (1.45 MiB) Viewed 8569 times
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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby healey36 » Wed May 22, 2019 5:01 pm

Very cool, Marty...

Healey

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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby G3750 » Thu May 23, 2019 9:45 am

MartyE wrote:Closest I could get using Google Maps.

WV Stubenville.jpg


That's a very neat photo. I didn't realize the bridge was visible from that spot. Looks like it was taken on the ramp from Main Street (in Weirton) to WV Route 22. Hmm, I wonder what a telephoto lens would show us.

Thanks Marty!

George
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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby MartyE » Fri May 24, 2019 10:06 am

Not a telephoto but moved a bit and zoomed in.

WV Stubenville 2.jpg
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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby rogruth » Fri May 24, 2019 11:21 am

This bridge was double track until it became Conrail, I think.
Two trains passing on the bridge was impressive.
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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby chuck » Sat May 25, 2019 12:43 am

Assume that the train with the poorly executed E-8's is the "Spirit of St. Louis" heading towards Columbus, Indianapolis and then St. Louis? Broadway Limited took a more northerly route through Crestline and Ft. Wayne while the Spirit went through Steubenville, Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis and St. Louis.
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Re: "Crossroads of Commerce" joins the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby E7 » Sat May 25, 2019 2:36 am

chuck wrote:None of the PRR E7 or E8's had the lead coupler cowling depicted in the painting. That feature seemed to be linked to FM and Baldwin.


HOGWASH! From the PRR T & HS Keystone Modeler no 81 Summer 2012:

"ENCLOSED COUPLER PILOTS
The PRR opted to have their entire fleet of E-units (except
the original experimental E7 pair 5900A/5901A) built with
EMD’s “passenger” or more accurately, “enclosed coupler pilots.”
This was EMD’s answer to the PRR’s requirement put
forth in early 1947 for the passenger units to have a pilot that
would “lift an object and throw it to one side”. All the E8A’s
had the same pilot arrangement as that on the last (1949) order
of E7A’s save for the uncoupling levers.
The pilot doors had a rounded corner bulge to cover the
retractable couplers. The doors had vertical handholds on
each side of the bulge and locking handles near the outer
edges of the doors. In order to lock the doors in the open
position, vertical slots were provided in the pilot sheets,
forward of the steps, in which to engage the locking devices
by rotating the handles. The pilot steps and grab irons above
were located as far rearward as possible to provide clearance
from the doors. The horizontal grab mounted above the steps
was located in the center slot of the anti climber. Visually,
only the steel strap supporting the step formed the squaredoff
rear corner of these late pilots. As a result, the rear edges
were vertical at the bottom.
The removal of the doors was eventually approved by the
ICC and the doors began to be completely removed and the
pilots reconfigured in 1955.
UNCOUPLING LEVERS
The uncoupling lever handles on all the E8 enclosed
coupler pilots incorporated a bent rod that hung vertically
downward behind the rear edge of the pilot, on both sides of
the locomotive.
BUFFERS
All the units had a buffer built into the center of the
anticlimber. The buffers protruded out beyond the anticlimber
by several inches and were essentially flat across the center
and had a radius at the end corners."

If you look at the link below, about half way down, there is a side shot of an E8 with facctory coupler doors.

http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modele ... 202012.pdf

I am fairly sure the PRR mandated that ALL engines had coupler doors at one point. There were some shop made versions that were what I would describe as a bit more bulbous (rounded) on both E's and F's. The other makes (FM, ALCO< Baldwin) were more "boxy" or "angled".
There were even a couple F units (9518 & 9519) that had "freight" style pilots. They ended up with shop made coupler doors. The doors on some of the early F's were squared off.

The pilots of the original E7's (5900 & 5901) were styled like FT pilots. By the time 5901 made it to Strasburg, the original had gone away.

Don't know exactly when the coupler doors went away, but obviously they did!

PS: That rendition of the E8 in the calendar doesn't look that bad to me!

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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby chuck » Sat May 25, 2019 9:05 am

Thanks for the background information. Most of the photo's I found for the E's were from later in their service and the doors had been removed. This site:

https://www.american-rails.com/emd-e8.html

Shows a mix of covered and uncovered. The lead photo of the Wabash unit looks more pronounced, like the artists rendition. When you scroll down to the NYC unit you can see one side of the cover open while the other is closed. This looks much more subdued and possibly closer to the PRR version.

According to the drawing:

Image

The cover only protruded about 10". The area in front of the windscreen is also quite short which is consistent with the "bulldog" look of the late E's that EMD produced. Compare the engineering drawing with the artists rendition.

Image

Shouldn't a passenger loco pulling a named train Fleet of Modernism consist on advertising artwork post 1952 be Tuscan red?
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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby sarge » Sat May 25, 2019 10:20 am

chuck wrote:
Image



Chuck, something one must be a little careful of, but this is not an engineering drawing or even a general arrangement drawing. It comes from something called a classification book, and is solely intended to provide clearance dimensions and shop notes to the maintenance and operations folks on, in this case, New York Central. Those numerated dimensions are, by necessity, accurate, but the form shown is only a sketch to show where those features are. You can't rely on a class-book drawing for proof regarding the form, such as nose form or windshield depth, for these aren't scale drawings.

As an aside, the only engineering drawings that are remotely reliable are the detail drawings in a set. The first sheet with the assembly or "general arrangement" drawing is merely a key showing the location of each detail drawing on the assembly and keyed to the number system in the drawing set, rather like a table of contents in a book.

Model companies have very often run afoul of the inaccuracies in general arrangement drawings which, again, are not meant to be anything beyond a key to the detail drawings in a set. Alco's general arrangement drawings of their diesels were notorious, Athearn had a horrid EMD truck for years in HO because they took the easy way and just used the general arrangement drawing rather than put the effort into procuring and using the whole drawing set (which can be over a hundred seperate drawings, all keyed to the general arrangement) for a couple examples.

For what its worth, of course.

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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby chuck » Sat May 25, 2019 10:54 am

It's the ~10" measurement that concerns me. That doesn't look like a ~10" extension on the painting.

I understand that this is a painting and not a photograph and that an artist is supposed to use license to create something that a photograph would/could not.

One of the most striking paintings I've ever seen is Frederick Church's "Niagara". The painting captures the feeling of being there by capturing details but subtly changing their juxtaposition or angle of view. The painting is actually more impressive than many photographs because of this. He used multiple studies and sketches to create the final product and that product is far greater than the sum of its parts. When looking at the painting I get some of the same feelings that I had when visiting the site, more so than any photograph or video.
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Once I built a railroad, now it's done --
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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby sarge » Sat May 25, 2019 11:51 am

I wasn't on about the painting, but the drawing you are using as more of a reference than it is. That 10" deep cover dimension is going to be accurate, but the nose and windshield features you also cite in the drawing will not be; that's not the intent of the rendering.

That now leads me to this observation, then I'll leave this alone. Teller's paintings are art, arguably advertising art, not modelling. Isn't it perhaps an unfair expectation to expect prototype accuracy when the intent is mood, atmosphere, imagery, and a certain amount of advertisement from a calendar commission? Most shippers or passengers or other patrons for whom this image is intended wouldn't know an E7 from an E8, just a passenger diesel, any more than whether a J was commonly found east of Altoona, or whether the number on a Mountain is right for an M1 or an M1a or an M1b. These are intended to project a corporate image; how many SPF's overanalyse Teller's calendar paintings discussing them with great moral superiority at the annual PRRTHS conflab beyond that original purpose and miss the whole point of them?

The imagery is the magic, and sells the Pennsy, not the prototype neusosis.

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Re: CORRECTION: "Crossroads of Commerce" has NOT joined the Ghost of the Panhandle

Postby rogruth » Sat May 25, 2019 12:03 pm

All of the above comments are valid and I must agree with Sarge.
roger

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