A second look at MTH

[webenda]

Wayne,
The third video showing all the smoke is a real turnoff for me even on a steam engine. In my small train room you wouldn't be able
to see the trains with that much smoke.

I run all my locomotives with the smoke unit switch off (or disconnected in old engines.)

However, I was so impressed with the smoke coming out of Joe Pinto's modified smoke unit that I have to modify one of my Lionel locomotives to do that.
Reference: https://youtu.be/aGTd3EWdBE0
(I will need to build a vent hood over the layout! )

[webenda]

Wayne - here is what happens on legacy locomotives running in conventional mode (Z1000 chopped wave). When you fill the locomotive for the first time it smokes well. When its time to refill adding fluid gives only limited smoke. Refill again and usually no smoke. Eventually adding smoke again causes the smoke unit to overflow and the overflow detector causes 3 blinking light in the cab and the need to turnoff the smoke unit until repaired.

Thank you for more information. Do you know that the smoke unit will not smoke when the heating element is submerged in smoke fluid?

There are a variety of smoke units produced by both MTH and Lionel.

Lionel 27 ohm @ 8 Volts = 2.4 watts
MTH 20 ohm @ 8 Volts = 3.2 watts
Lionel 8 ohm @ 8 Volts = 8 watts
and more...

The last one has an 8-volt regulator and smokes like a champ in conventional mode. The regulator prevents the unit from frying itself to death when 18 volts are on the track. I do not know which engines have it but if Lionel had designed all of them with a low voltage regulator I suspect you would never have felt the need to start this subject.

[rogruth]

IMHO Lionels present management is on the right track if they are trying to sell toys to the general public and Legacy to the old hands.
There won't be any old hands to sell to soon if some of the toy users are not attracted to the hobby. It doesn't seem that $1000.00 +
locos and $75.00 pieces of rolling stock are bring in an abundance of new hobbyists.
Personally the survival of any model railroad company is of little significance to me. I am 82+ years old, have all the toys I need, a layout
that I am not going to tear down and rebuild now. If I did I might be dead before I got another one built to play with.

[rogruth]

Wayne,
I know you don't know and I don't get answers when I ask but why does anybody need or want that much smoke in a layout area?

[Roy]

At what point in the Lionel line do they go from the old piston-driven smoke, to the fan driven? The only MTH engine I have is one of those diamond-stacked ten wheelers from a Xmas set, and it has a fan.

[ScaleCraft]

I've got at least 25 engines on the pike. Trainmaster, F-3's, 225E, 675, 726/736, 665 (at least three of that style), three or four GM or AN NW2's, an old Walthers gas-electric, GP9, can't even remember what all I have. Oh, a 520.
Anyway, many decades ago I used to think smoke was kewl. I had the railroad in one of our upstairs bedrooms with 6 foot ceilings (not six foot anymore..). Had to walk around the ceiling light fixture.
I found one winter day that the smoke laid against the ceiling....and when the level got down to my eyes, I got a migraine that just would not go away.
The next day I started pulling the locos apart and cutting the units out..including the flappers and pistons.
Funny how they ran quieter without the flapper and piston thrashing around.
Any "new" old loco I get had the smoke unit cut out or at least the wire cut off the e-unit upon arrival.
Turner...err...Opinion.
Oh...and not one piece of MTH anywhere. Not even rolling stock.
I've worked on a lot of the MTH units..generally early (PS-1) a buddy would pick up with dead electronics cheap....and I would gut them fully, install a Dallee DCRU or a QSI reverser for him..no sound, no smoke, no "command (failed) control".
He's happy.

[G3750]

This is an interesting topic. Things I think I think:

• MTH locomotives have a well deserved reputation for producing the most smoke in the 3-rail world.
• My Williams Pennsy locos smoke adequately, leaving a slowing sinking trail of smoke in their wakes. It's pretty cool.
• I used to care more about smoke. I even purchased several K-Line smoking PRR cabin cars, which I now run with smoke turned off.
• My Open Hearth has 2 Lionel Industrial smokestacks. Their smoke output is lackadaisical at best and anemic at worst. Of course, if I accurately replicated the Weirton Steel Open Hearth, there'd be 1/4" of soot and graphite on everything on the layout and the ceiling would be obscured by the clouds of red-gray smoke billowing from the stacks. And let's not even think about the effect on lungs.
• When I do smoke, I use the "Nada" scent. At Christmas, the train around the tree gets Christmas Berry or Pine scented smoke fluid.
• Smoke output is not a real factor in my selection of locomotive brands. I buy what fits the railroad and what I like. I hope it smokes some.

And finally, "I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I drink Dos Equis". Sorry, lost my train of thought.

Oh, I almost forgot. In the new train room, I am planning to mount a fan in the window or the nearby backdrop and pull any smoke away from people and out the window.

George

[bob turner]

I have an MTH 2-rail SD-7 (or -9, your choice). It has a wonderful smoke unit. My layout is essentially in a breezy building that has wide open doors and large windows (Southern Cal). After watching the thing smoke for two days, I realized I could not stand the odor. It kind of made me sick! It snuck up on me . . . no way I will do that again!

[webenda]

Wayne,
I know you don't know and I don't get answers when I ask but why does anybody need or want that much smoke in a layout area?

I do know... it is the WOW factor.

Stuff that comes out of a model train doesn't look like anything I've ever seen in the 1:1 world.

Maybe black dye could be added to smoke fluid to make black smoke.

Crayola Crayons are paraffin wax and color pigment.
Reference: http://www.crayola.com/faq/your-busines ... gredients/
Adding crayons to smoke bombs makes the smoke crayon colored.

Crayon Smoke Bombs.jpg (55.51 KiB) Viewed 9007 times

Reference: http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Colored-Smoke-Bomb

Colored smoke fluid?
I'm thinking of food coloring, but I'm worried about it killing the unit.Thanks!

Even if you color it ink black, it will still puff out white.
Don't bother trying.

I agree it will come out white no matter what you do it so I don't think its worth it.

I think ADCX Rob and trainfan504 are blowing smoke.

I know the wikihow article is blowing smoke. Crayons do not make such saturated, dense colors when used for smoke bombs. The image shown in the article looks like it used commercial dyes in larger concentrations than could be obtained using a few crayons.
Reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_smoke
https://youtu.be/K3YaU5QGHlA

If anyone wants to try black dye in their smoke fluid, I would suggest one of the dyes used to make black candles. The dye is already dissolved in something and will mix with paraffin. It should mix with the mineral oil used for smoke fluid as well.[opinion]

Black Dye.jpg (86.36 KiB) Viewed 9003 times

Reference: https://www.candlescience.com/color/black-liquid-dye

[CWBurfle]

If you put dye in your smoke fluid, what is going to happen to the surfaces on which it is eventually deposited?

[chuck]

The "smoke" from smoke fluid looks "white" because the particle size is so small that it refracts the light much the way water vapor in a cloud does. It scatter the wavelength evenly and you get "white". Most of the effluent from a real steam locomotive is also white for the same reason, it's mostly water vapor refracting light in the same way. You only get gray or black smoke when the combustion process is incomplete. The poorer the combustion, the more particulate mater and the darker the smoke.

I seriously doubt that the crayola smoke bomb can't be scaled down enough to work in a toy train. Plus you would have to worry about cleaning up the mess afterwards. The vaporized smoke fluid condenses and falls back onto the layout pretty quickly. I suspect anything with particulate matter small enough to make an accurate 1/48 scale black smoke cloud would wind up being either toxic or at best hazardous to ones health.

[Neil]

"If you look past the owner and just look at the products MTH trains have a lot to offer in my opion."

No doubt. I'm not that interested in conventional locos, and I'm not interested in smoke (safety for lungs, and mess are the main issues for me).So that means DCS for MTH locos. A true kluge of a system. No way am I buying into that particular mess .

MTH locos are superior to Lionel locos in two ways as best I can tell. They are less expensive on average, and they smoke better. Not huge concerns, especially since I'm mostly buying LC+ locos which are actually cheaper than MTH PS3 locos. Lionel locos have equal or better sound, they are more toy-like if that's your thing, and they have much better repair availability. Not to mention that either TMCC/Legacy or LC/LC+ are strikingly more reliable and intuitive to me to use.

As for the owner, he's become less of a thug than he was, and the train wars appear to be over. Water over the dam, but I'm not interested in MTH although occasionally I'll buy some rolling stock (a recent NYC caboose, for example). The fact that he once had a photo of me as a dartboard in his office (according to others, never visited myself ) is of no concern at this late date.

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

I wish they would all offer engines with only the can motor installed. My last engine bought was also my 1st Lionel steam engine, a Legacy 4-8-2. I modified it to look like a 4-8-2 used by Seaboard Air Line and installed BPRC for a command control system. Best slow-speed engine I have and looks great:

Before:

Lionel 1491.jpg (66.47 KiB) Viewed 8982 times

After:

DSCN0710_531.JPG (261.65 KiB) Viewed 8982 times

scratchbuilt brass tender, parts moved around and added. The electronics that came with it are now sitting in a parts box. I got this for a LOT less than MSRP, turned out to be a good investment for me, especially if I sell off the electronics package

[webenda]

I seriously doubt that the crayola smoke bomb can't be scaled down enough to work in a toy train.

I think you meant, "I seriously doubt that the crayola smoke bomb can be scaled down enough to work in a toy train."
Yes, they can be scaled down to fit into a Lionel smoke unit. No way I would recommend anyone do such a thing. Smoke bombs use potassium nitrate to supply oxygen to the process, Sugar to supply fuel, baking soda to control the temperature of the burn and dye to color the normally white smoke that results from burning. I notice everyone who lights one off runs away from it as soon as the fuse ignites.
Reference: https://youtu.be/kWOqN_BQS7w

Plus you would have to worry about cleaning up the mess afterwards.

I look at the concept of black smoke as an advantage, you should be able to see what needs cleaning. With conventional smoke, the oily film left on everything (including air circulation ducts) is transparent and often not noticed.

I suspect anything with particulate matter small enough to make an accurate 1/48 scale black smoke cloud would wind up being either toxic or at best hazardous to ones health.

No need to scale down particle size, the oil droplets in conventional smoke fluid condensate are totally satisfactory.

The "smoke" from smoke fluid looks "white" because the particle size is so small that it refracts the light much the way water vapor in a cloud does. It scatter the wavelength evenly and you get "white". Most of the effluent from a real steam locomotive is also white for the same reason, it's mostly water vapor refracting light in the same way. You only get gray or black smoke when the combustion process is incomplete. The poorer the combustion, the more particulate mater and the darker the smoke.

The color from smoke bombs is not from incomplete combustion, it is from pigment or dye. I am sure black dye would yield the same results (black smoke) as red or blue dye in a smoke bomb.

Toy train smoke units operate in a different manner, they do not burn a powder, they boil an oil. What I do not know is would the oil and dye carrier boil off together. If so, would the oil and dye carrier boil off leaving the black pigment behind?

If the pigment will not exit a smoke box with the oil and pigment carrier (I suspect that would be the case) then a different method of operation would be required, like an oil pump to pump the smoke fluid through an atomizer nozzle. Aha! I feel an experiment coming on.

[Roy]

This stuff(train smoke) is actually vaporized oil and it tends to make a mess when it condenses back into "oil". The more "smoke" the more mess.

Just wondering if anyone has coupled the new fan units to an older, pill-type smoke generator? It won't do anything for the headaches, but the powder condensate should be easier to clean up.