I see this as an intelligence test

[G3750]

All:

Maybe I'm wrong or being harsh, but after all this time, all this behavioral evidence, and the state of MTH, isn't the answer rather obvious?

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/mth ... 6323792866

At least for those who are paying attention?

George

[ScaleCraft]

But the loyal ones think they need to keep buttering up the DOA DCS.
And the Wolf.
I have a lot of experience with DCS. All of it cutting it out, pitching it, and putting in a QSI or Dallee reversing unit.
Trains make enough noise. Anybody who wants sound has to crank it up way too loud.

I have three All-Trols running off a ZW, 1033, or whatever. NO programming. Trains run when you turn the power on.

No magic light bulbs, either. No toot of death. No screens to have to read (I mean, if you need a screen to tell you how fast you're going, you ain't looking at the trains).

[G3750]

I'm not the first. Pete Townsend asked "Is it true that the hypnotized never lie?"

George

[webenda]

Most model train nuts are not PHD Electrical Engineers.

Gunrunnerjohn might be an exception to the rule.

[gregj410]

I’d probably start with half of the system as it will likely function like a whole system for half the money.

[healey36]

NO programming. Trains run when you turn the power on.

I'm with Dave..."conventional" is the way to go!

[Rufus T. Firefly]

NO programming. Trains run when you turn the power on.

I'm with Dave..."conventional" is the way to go!

If you can't fit it on a 4x6 card, it's too complicated.

[G3750]

Most model train nuts are not PHD Electrical Engineers.

Well Wayne, it turns out that Adrian Tang IS a genuine rocket scientist (EE). He designs electrical circuits for NASA at JPL.
Adrian Tang, Ph.D.

So yeah, DCS is simple. To people like him.

Actually I understand he has done a great deal to assist MTH is cleaning up some of the signal issues. But if you need someone like him to do what he does, how does that translate to a "simple and easy way to run a railroad"?

I don't want to know how to use an oscilloscope to run trains.

George

[webenda]

Most model train nuts are not PHD Electrical Engineers.

Well Wayne, it turns out that Adrian Tang IS a genuine rocket scientist (EE). He designs electrical circuits for NASA at JPL.
Adrian Tang, Ph.D. George

I remember reading Tang's troubles with shorted TVS devices (cleverly hidden by MTH engineering.) He replaced them only to have them short again. At first, he blamed Lion Chief trains. Then he paralleled the TVS's with a string of series/parallel diodes. The TVS devices can trip but then the diodes take over the job of clamping the voltage, saving the TVS from a meltdown. Very clever indeed.

The thread continued with Failed TIU Output Drivers. The diodes on the TVS devices seemed to solve that problem in addition to the failed TVS problem.

The thread started on 5/1/18 and the diode fix was declared on 6/3/18. I quit reading it at that time.

I just looked and the subject went on until 12/20/20, 2 1/2 more years. Rather than read the whole thing I skipped to the end.

12/20/20--Zhubl asks, "I was wondering if anyone knows if this issue was ever addressed as new TIU's were built?"

12/20/20--Gunrunnerjohn answered, " I'd be stunned if anything was done."

12/20/20-- Zhubl responded, "Well that's what I was guessing the answer was going to be."

End of thread.

[gregj410]

If you were ever considering DCS to run your trains. All you have to do is read this. If you had any sense at all you would run the other way if you were able to stay awake through reading this.

Legacy is one way (base to train) signaling, so "buffering" is easy. The triangle (amplifier) points away from the base and towards the train.

The first issue is DCS is two way (train to TIU and TIU to train) signaling... so buffering is complicated since ... which way would the triangle point? If it just points one way it's not helpful since it will isolate in the other direction and you'll have no reverse signaling... and if you put two pointing both ways.... well then its just a loop of two triangles and now you have an oscillator. To do this successfully, you would need to "know" when a packet is about to go in one direction or another and switch in or out your triangle directions accordingly, which means the switching thing you build needs other logic signals from deep within the TIU (tapping the logic upstream of the output drivers)... to give your switch enough time to get the amplifier setup. Not easy with a big layout that has 20 or even more different TIU channels. You would need to tap all that logic on all the TIU channels in the layout to see when one of them somewhere is about to transmit a sequence.

The second part is the DCS packet timing: While we do know the sequence is always TIU-to-train before Train-to-TIU the TIU-to-train part is variable length (different commands --> different times) so it's not as simple as having an RC timer or something switch the triangle direction after a certain time constant so the amplifier points one way then the other. Unlike the TIU (who's firmware knows what command it is sending and what packet length it will be, and what response length to expect), you the outsider would need to extract this information from the outgoing packet to get these details for setting direction, and you would need to do it very very quickly since the packet you're decoding is also the packet you're steering the switch for. That also means you're going to need some kind of fast look-up of the outgoing commands, too much for a microcontroller, it'd have to be an FPGA with a respectable clock... so now you're getting into the $1000 range.

The third issue is that we're talking about trains which move: Like mentioned above it's TIU-to-train, and train-to-TIU signaling. Understanding where to place the TIU-to-train amplifier is simple... you'd put it at the TIU before the connection to the layout... but how would you place the amplifier for the train-to-TIU signal? If you place it at the TIU, well the signals already gone through the layout at that point and all the ringing, distortion, and noise is already in there so an amplifier won't help much at that point. You'd need to place it inside the train (at the point where the transmission originates and is "clean")... Put modules in each locomotive one by one... with an FPGA inside tapped into the PS2/3 board to get timing.



The more you think about it ... the less sense it makes... and that's why we don't have such a booster.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

The more you think about it ... the less sense it makes...

It only makes sense to someone who already knows/understands it already.

[G3750]

If you were ever considering DCS to run your trains. All you have to do is read this. If you had any sense at all you would run the other way if you were able to stay awake through reading this.

.
.
.

The more you think about it ... the less sense it makes... and that's why we don't have such a booster.

And yet the lemmings continue to run towards the cliff and the moths keep circling the flame...

George

[jlong]

Seems like these guys are more into fussing with gadgets than running trains.

[G3750]

Seems like these guys are more into fussing with gadgets than running trains.

True. And I get the allure. It's pretty cool to work on something yourself like an Arduino program w/ relays to control some animation. It's another thing to be sold a commercial product with promises of ease and use that doesn't measure up to its hype.

But at this point, anyone who's been paying attention to the sheer volume of technical issues, the numerous revisions of hardware / software, and the very stripped down status of MTH, should be fleeing DCS not embracing it.

George

[HONDO74]

Heck they eliminated a thread on OGR about Lionel not going to be there at York because they were getting in each others face about it. The same thing going on over on the O gauge forum and the model train forum.

When it comes to TOY TRAINS old men can find anything to complain about.