Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

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ScaleCraft
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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby ScaleCraft » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:33 pm

I have 1500 feet of track outside. About 100 switches. Aluminum rail (cheapest) and 100% radio/battery, in fact, has been all radio/battery since we finished testing for grades, passing siding length and curvature.

To preserve ballast, shop-vac hooked up to blow cleans mother nature's droppings.

What's it been, 26 years now?

All weather, including snow plow ops.

You know what wet ballast does to track power when it contacts several hundred feet of the underside of the rails?
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chuck
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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby chuck » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:25 pm

You know what wet ballast does to track power when it contacts several hundred feet of the underside of the rails?


Drains the batteries real fast. Low voltage + potential high current + wet conductor = dead battery. Filter cloth under the ballast and track elevated above ground level may help.
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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby KeithL » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:24 pm

MartyE wrote:I have DCS and use the WiFi app more as a learning tool than operating engines. My plan for future, possible TIU failures is to sell my DCS equipped engines. Personally I have only about 7 so when the TIU dies I'll be selling them.

I stopped buying MTH engines when PS2 came out because I didn't what to invest in locomotives whose advanced features were only available via another control system, especially one that, certainly in the early years, was complicated to implement and prone to operational issues.

When MTH announced the combined WiFi/TIU last year, I toyed with the idea of preordering it so I'd have the option of acquiring and running PS3 engines. However, before I pulled the trigger, I decided it didn't make sense because there's so much uncertainty--at least at present--regarding the availability of DCS support and parts for MTH (or Atlas) PS3 engines. Both are not available now; and even if, as promised, the new DCS and parts entities come into being, will they be around in 5-10 years when I'm most likely to need them?

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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby J. S. Bach » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:49 pm

chuck wrote:
You know what wet ballast does to track power when it contacts several hundred feet of the underside of the rails?


Drains the batteries real fast. Low voltage + potential high current + wet conductor = dead battery. Filter cloth under the ballast and track elevated above ground level may help.

???? My understanding of the battery/radio concept is that the rails are just there to guide the train. They, and the wheels, are not in the traction power circuitry; hence the term "dead rail". The rails and wheels could be plastic for all that it matters.

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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby chuck » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:26 am

Unless the trains have metal wheels and were originally configured for rail pickups?

I don’t know because the description is vague. It’s possible they use the track to charge the batteries and disconnect the charger while running? When the ground is dry the leakage is minimal. When it’s wet you could be getting reverse flow draining the battery.
Once I built a railroad, I made it run,
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Once I built a railroad, now it's done --
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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby G3750 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:17 am

KeithL wrote:
I stopped buying MTH engines when PS2 came out because I didn't what to invest in locomotives whose advanced features were only available via another control system, especially one that, certainly in the early years, was complicated to implement and prone to operational issues.

When MTH announced the combined WiFi/TIU last year, I toyed with the idea of preordering it so I'd have the option of acquiring and running PS3 engines. However, before I pulled the trigger, I decided it didn't make sense because there's so much uncertainty--at least at present--regarding the availability of DCS support and parts for MTH (or Atlas) PS3 engines. Both are not available now; and even if, as promised, the new DCS and parts entities come into being, will they be around in 5-10 years when I'm most likely to need them?


I totally get that. If for some reason my TMCC suffers component failure or scarcity, I have several Command Bases and some extra CAB-1s in reserve. But I also have an upgrade path - Legacy via CAB-1L. The future of DCS is much more murky. Apparently in one of the Lionel announcements, a Lionel staffer called DCS "a dying control system". You should read the outrage over on OGR! :roll: OMG!!! Someone dared to speak the truth, dared to pull back the curtain!! Oh, the humanity! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby Neil » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:38 am

People who have hitched their wagon to a dying horse do not want to be reminded about it. They'd rather think the horse will eventually recover and everything will be fine. Even when it's quite clear to any objective observer that things will not be fine.

If MTH is still around in five years, I'd be surprised. If the so-called DCS firm is still around in five years, I'd be shocked. The parts company might survive longer if they can ever get it up and functional.
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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby chuck » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:20 am

company might survive longer if they can ever get it up and functional.


This might be the shortest lived segment. Most of the "spare parts" are now gleaned from sacrificing a certain (small) percentage of the production runs. This is nothing like PW Lionel when the designs didn't change much and were often adaptations of earlier models. Parts were plentiful. Now that everyone has demanded scale fidelity/accuracy the productions runs are unique and the spare parts counts are way down.

Even in the electronics end of things the designs often used components that are no longer attainable. It is often easier to design a new circuit with "modern" components that can do the same function, assuming there is a market to buy the new parts. Original LCRU's look nothing like the ERR replacements which perform the same function.
Once I built a railroad, I made it run,
Made it race against time.
Once I built a railroad, now it's done --
Brother, can you spare a dime?

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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby G3750 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:40 am

chuck wrote:
company might survive longer if they can ever get it up and functional.


This might be the shortest lived segment. Most of the "spare parts" are now gleaned from sacrificing a certain (small) percentage of the production runs. This is nothing like PW Lionel when the designs didn't change much and were often adaptations of earlier models. Parts were plentiful. Now that everyone has demanded scale fidelity/accuracy the productions runs are unique and the spare parts counts are way down.

Even in the electronics end of things the designs often used components that are no longer attainable. It is often easier to design a new circuit with "modern" components that can do the same function, assuming there is a market to buy the new parts. Original LCRU's look nothing like the ERR replacements which perform the same function.


I have been told (by one of the train repair folks at the shop) that many MTH locomotives are identical under the skin. So a "repair" kit or set of spare parts is generic (per class of locomotive). That doesn't mean there aren't "holes" or parts that are scarce or simply not available. Parts seem to have been (in keeping with the general sense of MTH) less important than getting a product out the door. As a result, that person often has to scrounge around for parts to do a repair.

So as Chuck has noted, the parts company might have significant demand but it almost certainly is going to face some daunting shortages of components and replacement parts.

And those shortages might well accelerate MTH's trajectory onto the scrapheap of history.
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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:07 am

Now that's funny - DCS "a Dying Control System"
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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby healey36 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:46 am

J. S. Bach wrote:
chuck wrote:
You know what wet ballast does to track power when it contacts several hundred feet of the underside of the rails?


Drains the batteries real fast. Low voltage + potential high current + wet conductor = dead battery. Filter cloth under the ballast and track elevated above ground level may help.

???? My understanding of the battery/radio concept is that the rails are just there to guide the train. They, and the wheels, are not in the traction power circuitry; hence the term "dead rail". The rails and wheels could be plastic for all that it matters.


My understanding as well. I thought everything was powered by battery and operated by wireless signal via radio (similar to R/C model airplanes).

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ScaleCraft
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Re: Lionel Buys MTH Tooling

Postby ScaleCraft » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:09 am

chuck wrote:Unless the trains have metal wheels and were originally configured for rail pickups?

I don’t know because the description is vague. It’s possible they use the track to charge the batteries and disconnect the charger while running? When the ground is dry the leakage is minimal. When it’s wet you could be getting reverse flow draining the battery.

First rule of radio/battery is "remove track pickups".

Throw a 15A Bridgeworks onto the rails, and see how well things work with damp ballast. Even ballast you THINK is dry, isn't.
You can find those areas the next day as plantlife often is dead between rails.
Knew a....person....who calculated battery requirements for an on-board radio control using battery backup for dead spots. Supposed to run trains for weeks. 30 minutes and the deep-cycle batteries were flat.
Damp ballast.

We use less expensive aluminum rail, slip joiners, attach ties periodically to something. Any expansion/contraction occurs in slip joiners.
No expensive, flange-eating stainless rail, no rail clamps, no 15A power supplies needing protection from weather.

We have run through three major power outtages. Coffee pot only casualty.
Works for us.
Even at 27MC.
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