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ZW Transformer
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:05 pm
by rogruth
Sometime ago my Z4000 transformer developed a problem that no one has been able to diagnose. With MTH shutting down parts are not available.
Therefore I think maybe a postwar ZW might be the best solution. Parts still seem to be available and repair persons are familiar with it.
A few questions.
Adding a fast acting circuit breaker is recommended. What should be used, how is it installed and should one be installed on all four controls?
What is the lowest voltage available when starting? I have heard that it is 4-6 volts which limits low speed starts.
I run conventionally but do have a few TMCC locos that are usually run conventional.
I do know how to hook it up. Anything else I should know?
Thanks in advance.
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:17 am
by Norton
If you run conventional, there is only one breaker I am aware of that matches the performance of a modern Z4000 or Lionel ZW-L. That is the DCC Specialties PSX1-AC.
https://tonystrains.com/product/dcc-spe ... it-breakerIt opens in milliseconds, unlike thermal breakers or even fast fuses. You can also set the trip point. I would get one for each circuit you run trains with. Keep in mind the output power of a ZW is really only 200 watts so using all four controls is like having 4 50 watt transformers so consider maybe two for trains, two for accessories. Most accessories don't have any electronics in them so the ZWs built in thermal breakers is good enough for them.
The breaker is wired outside the transformer between it and the track. Two wires in, two out.
The only other breaker that matches the speed of this one is the Lionel TMCC Lock On but as that one doesn't put power to track until its gets around 13 volts, its only suitable for Command Control trains.
Pete
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:17 pm
by rogruth
Thanks, Pete.
I must say I am surprised that not more is known about the ZW on this forum.
I realize that most of the model railroading discussion takes place on the 2 rail forum
but surely some of you must know something about the ZW.
Oh, I got it. All the 3 rail guys use command control.
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:29 am
by healey36
Roger, private message Kent S. (Tranz4mr) here. He most likely can help you. I don’t think he routinely reads MTJ anymore, but a PM will go to his email.
I run conventional, but I don’t own a ZW, and to be honest, cracking open transformers is not something I’ve done (except to clean old prewar units).
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:15 am
by HONDO74
healey36 wrote:Roger, private message Kent S. (Tranz4mr) here. He most likely can help you. I don’t think he routinely reads MTJ anymore, but a PM will go to his email.
Kent S. (Tranz4mr) home page...
http://www.tranz4mr.com/Welcome.htmlLots of information here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lionel+ ... irefox-b-1https://www.google.com/search?source=un ... 24&bih=639
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:17 am
by Norton
Kent is surely an expert on all toy train transformers. Just consider the ZW like most all Post War transformers, come with a thermal breaker. They are slow compared with new electronic breakers. So adding a thermal breaker externally won't make much of an improvement. No need to install it inside either, though 4 screws and you can get inside.
All that said a circuit breaker protects the transformer, not the trains except maybe in a derailment where a wheel shorting the tracks might get hot. To protect the engine electronics against high voltage spikes you want to add a Transient Voltage Suppressor (TVS). They are cheap like a buck a piece. You place them across the track power leads, the closer to the track the better like at a lock on if you use those. I will have to look up a part number if you need that.
Pete
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:43 am
by rogruth
I have found in the Complete Service Manual for Lionel Trains that the lowest voltage output is 6 volts for the ZW.
The Z4000 had a low output of @ 1 volt. I was able to make nice smooth starts and run fairly slow with it.
Looks like a more modern transformer is needed to have this.
Any suggestions?
One by MRC would have worked but is no longer made.
The Lionel GW 180 is advertised as 0-18 volts. Anybody know about this?
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:06 am
by gregj410
Hi Roger,
Let me open with my disclaimer that I am an electrical boob, however I will share my experience if it helps. I only run command so I’m not familiar with conventional set ups.
At some point I bought this ZW pictured for variable voltage. I wanted to use one side for my lighting and the other side for whatever came up in the future.
The ZW you see pictured is powered by 2 180w bricks, one for each channel. I believe you could use this more modern ZW with the direct lock-on and that would offer adequate protection in the event of a short. The ZW is about 450$ and the lock-on around 50-75$ depending on where you buy it. The bricks are a constant 18v however run through the ZW I believe you can reduce the voltage down pretty low. Most of my LED’s are run at 4-6v. That said I believe you would still be able to get very slow starts with your locomotives. Hope this helps
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Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:26 am
by rogruth
Thanks, Gregg.
Yes I think that is true for that more modern ZW but the post war ZW is different.
I think the one you have is not easy to come by.
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:55 am
by gregj410
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:02 pm
by Norton
The trouble with the Lock On Greg is it doesn't apply power to the tracks until 12-13 volts is applied to it. It was designed to interface to older transformers when running Command engines. If you used to to run conventional there would be no movement until voltage was at 13 volts and the engine would take off at full speed. Its does have a fast breaker though.
Pete
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:59 pm
by gregj410
Norton wrote:The trouble with the Lock On Greg is it doesn't apply power to the tracks until 12-13 volts is applied to it. It was designed to interface to older transformers when running Command engines. If you used to to run conventional there would be no movement until voltage was at 13 volts and the engine would take off at full speed. Its does have a fast breaker though.
Pete
Got it Pete. Thank you for the clarification. I saw that in your first post
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:46 pm
by HONDO74
Maybe a KW would work they start at 0
Besides the ZW, what's your favorite old Lionel transformer?
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/bes ... 4532535678
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:44 pm
by Tranz4mr
rogruth wrote:Sometime ago my Z4000 transformer developed a problem that no one has been able to diagnose. With MTH shutting down parts are not available.
Therefore I think maybe a postwar ZW might be the best solution. Parts still seem to be available and repair persons are familiar with it.
A few questions.
Adding a fast acting circuit breaker is recommended. What should be used, how is it installed and should one be installed on all four controls?
What is the lowest voltage available when starting? I have heard that it is 4-6 volts which limits low speed starts.
I run conventionally but do have a few TMCC locos that are usually run conventional.
I do know how to hook it up. Anything else I should know?
Thanks in advance.
I’ve been retired for 2 years now. The transformer thing has turned into an informal business keeping me pretty busy. I’ve also been repairing postwar trains for the locals. Aside from that I’ve been pretty involved in the
http://www.trainweb.org/drgwscenicline/index.html (aka SLMI or as we call it “Slimy”) HO/HOn3 train club as well as helping 2 other friends build there HO layouts.
Back to Rogruth’s topic
As for the fast circuit breaker you really don’t need it if your running postwar or trains without sensitive electronics in them. If you are running somewhat modern trains the DCC Specialties PSX AC is the premium way to go. We use the DCC versions in our HO/HOn3 club layout and yes Tonystrains has the best prices. You can add Zener Diodes to each channel for cheap but very effective spike protection. I sell them for $1 each. I’m guessing that the PSX provides spike protection plus a whole lot more. You might be able to get away with just the Zener diodes. Postwar ZWs do start at 4-6 volts but postwar engines start and run slow. The ZW I’m working on now starts at 4 Vrms with a postwar engine on the track. My TMCC engines are packed away so I can’t check them for startup speed.
I think you should borrow a postwar ZW and try it. If you like it add some protection. Good luck!
Re: ZW Transformer
Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:10 pm
by rogruth
Thanks, Kent.
It is great that you have retired and even better that you have things to keep you busy.
I retired 21 years ago and was able to stay busy and connected for 19 more years.
Then eye problems ended that so now it is harder to stay busy.
Now it is mostly play with my trains or argue with my wife. The Z 4000 quit so I need
a replacement or I will only be arguing with my wife.