GM NW2

[ScaleCraft]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Scarce-General ... 3448650787

So.....if someone needs a fire engine red 3-rail AC GM NW2, this is it. BUT:

Not for $300.
I don't care if it's "Scarce General Models Corp. NW-2 Diesel Switcher. Runs.", that's ten times or more actual value.

AC, horizontal (useless) e-unit, vertical motor, tinplate flanges, Thomas sliders and couplers, fifteen?

"Trucks are made by Thomas Industries.". Now, that's a new one. Hadn't ever seen that claim before.
I suppose they are confused by the add-on Thomas Industries Sliders for center rail pickup.
"Runs forward and reverse. The e-unit works properly." except by design they never did work "properly".

Road number one side....other side, meh.

Opportunist.

[chuck]

Nice and shiny . I assume the under shots show chips of the original paint.

[jlong]

You are right. GM bought the pick up shoes from Thomas Industries for the 3 rail version leaving the clueless to believe the entire truck assembly was made by Thomas Industries. That is just not the case. Scarce? No way. They sold well. So well, Lionel copied them. A nice restoration project but not for 3 bills. Had it been professionally painted by someone who knew what the were doing and not some Krylon hack, maybe. LMAO.

[ScaleCraft]

Lionel copied them? No. I discussed that with one of the folks here, took measurements, not copied. All dimensions are different, some not by much, but different. I have a bunch of them.

Four or five three-rail, three or four 2-rail. Horizontal and vertical motors, AC and DC versions.

There are so many out there (and the "General Models" lettering cast in never changed with All-Nation) that thinking back, I don't think I ever paid for any of them. Maybe one, because I have fifteen bucks locked in my brain.

Classy paint jobs add some, if they aren't chipped up, but even then maybe, horizontal DC motor with 8-wheel drive, sixty bucks tops.

They are NOT "vintage, rare, collectible". The most valuable one I have is a 2-rail, vertical motor 600 horse unit. THAT is "rare".

I don't know if I've ever seen one with factory prototype paint.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Above average 2 rail dual drive ones of late have been selling in the $100-$150 range - this has none of those qualities.

[jlong]

Lionel copied them? No. I discussed that with one of the folks here, took measurements, not copied. All dimensions are different, some not by much, but different. I have a bunch of them.

I didn't say reverse engineered. I said copy. Big difference. Lionel copied what cottage industries of the time were doing if it sold well and it's blatantly obvious. Atwater introduced F3's in 47. Lionel followed in 48. GMC introduced NW-2's in 48, Lionel in 49. Coincidence? Hardly. Lets not forget how Lionel rushed extruded aluminum passenger cars to the market by doctoring up AMT's extruded aluminum cars for their advance catalog soon after AMT introduced them. I could go on and on such as how Lionel capitalized on what Kusan was doing with military and space.

[ScaleCraft]

I dunno. Copy has a different meaning to me. Like making a mold thereof and reproducing. Or peeking over your fellow student's shoulder and copying answers verbatim.
Or six different manufacturers producing, oh, a NYC Hudson....all copies, of course.
A lot of that pre-production photography was done with other manufacturer's stuff. Last I knew of was MTH's entry into LS with photoshopped matter. And I think AristoCrap did it a lot.
Maybe Tesla copied Henry Ford's Model T?

Copy means something just more...exact that a comparison that doesn't meet L-W-H.

[jlong]

Maybe I should have used the word "mock" to get Lionel history across to you. Or you just like to argue. I tend to think the latter.

[ScaleCraft]

Maybe I should have used the word "mock" to get Lionel history across to you. Or you just like to argue. I tend to think the latter.

Nah. Adult conversations sharing varying ideas and solutions, less beer.

[ScaleCraft]

Lionel copied them? No. I discussed that with one of the folks here, took measurements, not copied. All dimensions are different, some not by much, but different. I have a bunch of them.

I didn't say reverse engineered. I said copy. Big difference. Lionel copied what cottage industries of the time were doing if it sold well and it's blatantly obvious. Atwater introduced F3's in 47. Lionel followed in 48. GMC introduced NW-2's in 48, Lionel in 49. Coincidence? Hardly. Lets not forget how Lionel rushed extruded aluminum passenger cars to the market by doctoring up AMT's extruded aluminum cars for their advance catalog soon after AMT introduced them. I could go on and on such as how Lionel capitalized on what Kusan was doing with military and space.

So much of that. Since I have been involved in the NW2 conversation prior to this, and consider (opinion) that the common wisdom bandied about elsewhere about "copy" is wrong and possibly sour grapes, that may indicate why "copy" got my attention so fast.

Merriam-Webster:
copy, imitate, and mimic mean to make something so that it resembles something else. copy means trying to duplicate a thing as much as possible. ... imitate means that a person uses something as an example but does not try to make an exact copy.

So a possibly better definition is "imitate". If you consider development time on Lionel's F-5's, the involvement of the NYC and ATSF, who knows exactly when development started as compared to Atwater.
I'm sure there are documents that will tell us.

Consider the mid-80's Thunderbird. And the "imitations" by other manufacturers when they saw sales that Ford was making.

Or, consider Big Boys. Now, if oh, let's say MTH developed a Big Boy from original drawings and made it.
Then let's say, oh, Lionel developed a Big Boy from original drawings. Copy? Imitation? Scale Model?

Gets strange.

[ScaleCraft]

Lionel copied them? No. I discussed that with one of the folks here, took measurements, not copied. All dimensions are different, some not by much, but different. I have a bunch of them.

I didn't say reverse engineered. I said copy. Big difference. Lionel copied what cottage industries of the time were doing if it sold well and it's blatantly obvious. Atwater introduced F3's in 47. Lionel followed in 48. GMC introduced NW-2's in 48, Lionel in 49. Coincidence? Hardly. Lets not forget how Lionel rushed extruded aluminum passenger cars to the market by doctoring up AMT's extruded aluminum cars for their advance catalog soon after AMT introduced them. I could go on and on such as how Lionel capitalized on what Kusan was doing with military and space.

Ummm....what I read recently is Atwater/GM talked about the F units in 48. Lionel cataloged theirs in 48, and allegedly shipped them. Atwater/GM in 49.
So, the lead time to develop the models, produce, catalog and ship.....mimic and copy don't work for me.

[rogruth]

Dave,
Going back to the references to the e-unit at the start of this topic why do you call the e-unit useless and that it worked improperly?
This is NOT a criticism, it is wanting to understand.

[ScaleCraft]

Most of the e-units we use are vertical, gravity drop. Pop right up when power applied.
The GM 3-rail units used a horizontal, spring-loaded e-unit. Not a free-floating plunger and pawl, rather you have to have enough power in the coil to overcome the spring.

So, you power up the railroad, put your NW on the track, apply power by whatever means available to you.
Engine starts moving. Hey, this is great.
Apply a little more power, goes a bit faster...add a bit more and POW! the current in the coil overcomes the spring and it's in neutral.
Okay, cycle the power, start bringing power up (and you can't "cycle" the e-unit until the plunger pulls in) and suddenly POW! it's tearing away from you in reverse.
Pain In The Arse.
Every stinking time.
You will break couplers and derail train cars trying to switch with it.

So, you find a QSI ACRU or a Dallee. Not cheap. But they work.
Then you find a set of Lionel pickups to fit.

Without stripping and painting, you've got at least $60 parts plus shipping and your time to install. Now you know why 3-rail NW's like these aren't worth more than $15. By the time you pay 15, shipping, then order the parts, and shipping, you haven't even stripped and painted and you're approaching 125.

I had a box of QSI ACRU's given to me long ago. Last one got used. Only way these made any sense.

$300? Come on.

[ScaleCraft]

BTW, I've saved several of those horizontal e-units if anybody REALLY has to have them. Used to get some of that with the first 726's and Turbines that had horizontal e-units, but not as pronounced.

You can see the e-unit mounted horizontally in the 1946 version 726:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... -167333993

[rogruth]

Thanks, Dave. That does make it understandable.The Lionel mechanical e-units were the only ones in my experience besides the newer electronic type.