MTH Proto 3 locos

[rogruth]

I do not have any MTH locos and to the best of my knowledge the only MTH loco I have seen up close was a model of the Flying Yankee owned by Dave Kingston that he ran on my three rail layout using an MTH Z 4000 transformer with conventional control. There were no problems with this.

Now I know that many of the MTJ forum members do not care for MTH but I always seem to get honest answers here. Now to the question.
I have read much about the problems caused by bad batteries in earlier Proto 1 and 2 locos. I understand that the Proto 3 locos do not use batteries.
So have these problems been eliminated? Are there still odd things that happen with these locos? Also keep in mind that I run conventional power.

[G3750]

Roger,

I can't answer your questions about batteries in Proto 3 engines. However, I believe, repeat believe, that PS 3 locomotives have better success with DCS than their predecessors. That's what I've heard. I've not experienced it for myself.

And MTH locomotives have always been great lookers.

George

[bluelinec4]

All MTH loco's whether PS1, PS2 5 volt,PS2 3 volt or PS3 can be run in conventional mode The difference with PS3 is that there isnt any battery Theyreplced the battery with Super Capacitors They run well in conventional but you do have to wait about 45 seconds when initially powering up for the capacitors to charge up fully

[rogruth]

Thank you.
So PS1 or 2 locos must have a battery or capacitor.?

[G3750]

Thank you.
So PS1 or 2 locos must have a battery or capacitor.?

Correct. And that has been their Achilles heel, primarily PS1 locomotives.

George

[chuck]

PS-1 are the ones to avoid or plan on gutting the electronics. The battery is an integral part of the system and the "state machine" QSI designed doesn't tolerate a weak battery. If you have a PS-1 engine with a weak battery, you need to power up the track and NOT DO ANYTHING until the battery is charged enough to avoid scrambling the instruction set. This means NOTHING. Any kind of voltage swing or DC pulse could be interpreted as instructions and cause the board to get scrambled. PS-2 can't get scrambled and PS-3 removed the battery entirely.

[rogruth]

So the PS # loco is a great improvement over the others and can be placed on the track and run like post war and other Lionel.

[chuck]

Yes. You just need to remember to let the on board capacitor to charge up to 45 seconds before running the loco. This isn't an issue in command mode as the track is always at 18 volts from start to finish.

[healey36]

So Chuck, I have a P-1 standard gauge 392E that hasn't been run for a few years. I bought a BCR to put in it, but haven't (just haven't taken the time to pull the behemoth down off the shelf). What's your recommended sequence for bringing it back to like while minimizing the risk of balling it up?

Paul

[chuck]

I would recommend pulling the battery and replacing it with the BCR before trying to fire it up. You can try giving it a temp charge first which is the recommended procedure when replacing the battery with a new one. If you go this route, use a separate transformer and test track, no connections to anything else that might generate a spurious signal to the processor. This involves allowing the old battery to charge up for about 15 minutes.

You should NOT put the loco on anything except a test track (aka nothing else connected to the transformer) and follow the power up procedure outlined in the PS-1 manual. This means 10 volts for 2.2 seconds (enter and clear RESET, two bell clanks?), then switch to neutral (as in F-N-R) and power up to 2/3 power (~12 volts) and let it sit for 15 minutes. Power down and then swap the battery for the BCR.

Follow the BCR manual for proper startup procedures.

The trick for PS-1 is, in general, to avoid any voltage swings or DC (+ or -) while in reset mode unless you KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. A Z-4000 is about the only sane way to fiddle with the feature set on a PS-1 loco.

[rogruth]

Why is this so complicated? Just because it was a Lionel / MTH rivalry? Or something else?

[ScaleCraft]

It's complicated because Mikey is a genius. If you don't believe that, just ask him, and he'll tell you.

I have done all sorts of cut-and-throw on MTH engines. DCRU's when they were available, Dallee when not.
Most worthless waste of electronics I have ever seen, and it all goes into the trash.

Last one I did was couple of months ago, an MTH copy of an Ives 1134 (?) standard gauge.
Did a full service on it earlier in the year, club was running it late in the year and POOF!, dead.
Battery showed charge, but the Dead Control System proved it's name that day.
12A Dallee went in, ALL the factory stuff came out, including the separate code wheel and gear train, smoke unit, brackets, screws, wiring.

DC can motor and worm drive...really quiet and the club doesn't need one or two "equipped" locos to run alongside pre-war Lionel engines.

[chuck]

Roger asked:

Why is this so complicated? Just because it was a Lionel / MTH rivalry? Or something else?

Partially. There is a lot of ego involved in this. Lionel used to use QSI stuff until Dick Kughn and Neil Young teamed up to create TMCC. They had seen what QSI was working on and decided they could do better. When Mike Wolf and Lionel parted ways, Mike needed electronics for the trains he decided to make. He turned to QSI.

The issues with the PS-1 chips getting scrambled is complicated. MTH and its followers are quick to blame QSI as they "made" the modules. They are less sanguine about the changes MTH demanded to the original QSI designs that directly lead to the scrambling issues.

The back story on all of this is that Lionel originally wanted a system that would work with any train they ever made. This required support for open frame motors and a host of other issues that would further muddy the waters. I made peace with the knowledge that I would gut any PS-1 loco I ever purchased and I've limited my purchase of newer stuff to things like subways that Lionel wouldn't make. It bothers me to pay extra for electronics I don't want/need but that's the way it goes.

[rogruth]

Thanks all.

I have been told that MTH steam locos in particular are very nice looking. They do offer several that Lionel doesn't in prices that I might be able to afford. But as Chuck has pointed out is it worth the extra cost? I am mostly a PRR and B&O fan but if it is close enough to the actual loco and says
Lionel or Luxury Lines on the locos and cars I don't much care.I think the Berkshire is a beautiful loco but not with Pennsylvania on the tender. I
know that's strange but I don't care. I have not seen a PRR Mikado with the Belpaire boiler that I can afford. MTH makes one but is it worth my
attention? Would it need to have its guts cut out? If so would it be worth it?
Even if someone answers my questions I still might not get any MTH locos. I really don't care about rivets but most PRR locos gotta have Belpaire.

[ScaleCraft]

PRR Mikado, and NOT MTH?


All Lionel.