Lionel Catalog 2019 1

[MartyE]

Neil

While I tend to agree that many of the QC issues can be over blown, there is no doubt as of late Lionel has suffered from some factory issues that they need to correct. Lionel should really take a good look at their suppliers and correct the issues they are having. One of their factories is extremely sloppy.

While I believe many of the folks legitimately want to report their issues without drama, the sequential pile on is why most threads in other forums rightfully get deleted. People let their passion run their keyboards instead of calmly reporting and civilly discussing the issues. While I have seen on some forums where they try to justify personal attacks against employees and management of Lionel it's amazing just how ignorant they can get with little facts to support their rant as it pertains to the inner company workings.

I am very supportive of all forms of civilized discussion of any companies failures, but personal attacks and keyboard warriors does little to convince me to the point of view they are trying get across. I think many of them are more into the hobby of trying to impress us with their wit and wisdom of running a business that have no inside knowledge of than playing with their trains. Again I truly enjoy when someone can present their issues civilly but it all falls apart for me when you introduce name calling and ignorant dialog. I also bet most of them who declare "I will not preorder anything" already have their orders in with their favorite dealers.

As far as middle ground, Lionel would be wise to watch the cost of the LC+2.0 line. It could be a big boom for them but they have to watch who and what they are competing with.

[MartyE]

To Christopher's point, Lionel's packaging has a lot to be desired in the last few years. Comparing it to items I received 5 years ago, there is definitely a lowering of standards there. The engine wrapping alone in today's products just barely go around the locomotive once. MTH on the other hand is almost too much. The foam cradles both use can be questionable at times as well. Lionels boxes have become increasingly thinner on the inner and outer boxes.

I do think shipping damages can be a big reason as well and I've stated so.

[Neil]

Here's my take on Lionel quality problems: they exist but have been wildly exaggerated. Why would that be? Well, all you need is a few vocal people who have a problem and then extrapolate to the whole product line. They are well intentioned but their fear mongering contributes to anxiety amongst the existing members of the hobby and terrifies any newbies. Indeed, there is no way of disproving their assumptions and when questioned they become indignant, even violent in language. They like hearing the sound of their own keyboards, and they give no thought to the negative consequences of their behavior.

Usually they have no scientific or statistical training, much like the anti-vaccine crowd, who likewise rely on falsified data, inappropriate extrapolation and general fear mongering. It's dangerous to the public health in small and large ways.

[healey36]

So if Lionel has ten time as many failures as MTH, it's pretty much proportional to the number of products sold (including sets and locos) is my estimate.

By "number of products sold" I'm presuming you mean the actual volume of items sold, not the number of products offered. I'm no MTH fanboy, as I've had serious issues with their (MTH) QC out-of-the-box and documented here, but I seriously doubt Lionel's sales are ten-fold greater than MTH. Unfortunately neither company issues financials publicly, so we'll never know. From a venture-capital perspective, I'm still amazed Guggenheim has hung onto this dog as long as it has.

[MartyE]

Here's my take on Lionel quality problems: they exist but have been wildly exaggerated. Why would that be? Well, all you need is a few vocal people who have a problem and then extrapolate to the whole product line. They are well intentioned but their fear mongering contributes to anxiety amongst the existing members of the hobby and terrifies any newbies. Indeed, there is no way of disproving their assumptions and when questioned they become indignant, even violent in language. They like hearing the sound of their own keyboards, and they give no thought to the negative consequences of their behavior.

Usually they have no scientific or statistical training, much like the anti-vaccine crowd, who likewise rely on falsified data, inappropriate extrapolation and general fear mongering. It's dangerous to the public health in small and large ways.

While I agree they can be exaggerated, my experience from opening 2 years worth of Lionel and MTH product at the LHS on Saturdays to place on the shelves say Lionel definitely should be concerned. Again I do feel there is an exaggeration, but I have noticed that the Lionel product line has suffered from some simple QC issues that could be easily remedied with some attention. Not across the board but definitely enough to say to me they need to address it before it really does become a big problem. This coming from a big Lionel guy in a store that features MTH.

Some of the issues I've seen can definitely be pegged squarely on shipping and some not so much. And for the record yes I have seen some MTH doozies as well.

[Neil]

" I seriously doubt Lionel's sales are ten-fold greater than MTH. "

I'm seriously suggesting it's true. You are perhaps not considering set sales, which have a bunch of items, including a loco. Lionel sells hundreds of thousands of sets. MTH sells a few thousand or ten thousand. So even if high end loco sales are similar, Lionel product numbers are dramatically higher. Sets are the biggest difference between the two vendors and it's probably more like a 100 or 1000 to 1 in favor of Lionel.

I accept Marty's observation that Lionel products may be having more problems than he's seen in the past. And perhaps their failure rate has gone from 5% to 10%, which would be noticeable and worrisome, but that leaves 90% of people with good experiences. And if you have to exchange or get a refund, it's not the end of the world, although from some of the belligerent yahoos on-line you'd think it was the kind of emotional disaster that most of us associate with a severe illness in the family or a car wreck .

[MartyE]

And if you have to exchange or get a refund, it's not the end of the world, although from some of the belligerent yahoos on-line you'd think it was the kind of emotional disaster that most of us associate with a severe illness in the family or a car wreck .

And there is where I feel the problem is. Yes it's disappointing when you get a defective item and it should be made right but relax man it's not television. Get satisfaction and move on whether that is stop buying or what have you. The keyboard is getting tired of putting out the same old same old.

[Neil]

Withdrawn by popular request ; ).

[MartyE]

Well let's not fall into that rut. We have some good conversation here. I'd rather talk about the catalog than rehash what others have to say.

The more I look at the TriPolar the more I like it. Looks like I'll be in for one. I will definitely pull the scale Polar freight cars I have been getting.

There are a few other items I haven't mentioned before that I'll probably wait and see where I stand to get. Nothing BTO. All regular type products. I like the "nose art" cars. Pretty bold of Lionel in this day and age but I still love it!

[Big Jim]

Well let's not fall into that rut. We have some good conversation here. I'd rather talk about the catalog than rehash what others have to say.

For once I disagree with Neil, however, this is not the thread to debate the matter.

[Neil]

I will be buying at least one BTO, which will be a first for me in several years. Just have to decide which one . And a few other items no doubt from among the more run of the mill products. I'm rather tempted by the BN LC loco for around $200 MSRP, probably available for 30 dollars less at the dealer.

[rogruth]

I have three locos with TMCC but do not have any of the expensive locos. None are from the past five years so I can't really say much.
I do have some newer rolling stock and have had no problems with any of it.

I also have @20 Menards cars and have heard complaints about wheel sets being out of gauge. Maybe there is something wrong with
my track but I have had no problems with these cars derailing.

IMHO Lionel has cataloged a lot of things that should appeal to younger model rails. I don't care for Hot Wheels train sets but I think
some youngsters do. I am a Lionel fan but have a lot of stuff from other companies and I feel sure that they do not make that type
of stuff without some research. I think they need more traditional sized products. Many people do not have the money or the room
needed for scale sized trains.

I sometimes think that there are many people that seem to think that if they find fault they are being helpful to the community and
some are just born complainers that look for things to complain about. The color isn't exact. Ever notice the cars of a given railroad
or company are not all the same color? Of course you have. A rivet might be a little off on some of our toys. Does that really make
any difference? However, when a loco does breakdown in a short period of time or a piece arrives defective the company of origin
needs to know. But to see how many different ways you can say the same thing seems to be a waste of space and time.

[Robert Bubeck]

While I tend to agree that many of the QC issues can be over blown, there is no doubt as of late Lionel has suffered from some factory issues that they need to correct. Lionel should really take a good look at their suppliers and correct the issues they are having.

Regrettably, I tend to agree with Marty. Examples include the Moguls, indifferent assembly of some of the 21" passenger cars, Honda Civic silver in the smoke boxes of expensive Legacy steamers, foul ups in planning and execution of American Flyer, etc. My last "big" Lionel purchase was two years ago of a Legacy Reading T-1, which is superb. I am not emphatically saying don't buy, don't BTO, etc. but I haven't had these misgivings concerning Lionel in about 15 years. Hope my concerns are misplaced.

Respectfully,

Bob