TMCC Upgrade Path in Jeopardy

[Neil]

Actually that was John Long. But I think he meant simply that if there is demand for a product, someone will fill that demand. I think he's largely right about that. If there is a profitable practical manner to keep ERR products and TMCC alive, Lionel and a partner will do so. If not, they will come up with a TMCC to Lionchief/Bluetooth converter or some other such fix.

The gnashing of teeth, pessimism and cynicism expressed by some seems wildly out of proportion to the reality. But some old guys like their melodrama and huffing and puffing about stuff . As an old guy who likes to conserve his energy for important stuff, it's pretty hilarious, but I cannot get too exercised about other people's need for righteous drama, indignation and self-pity.

[Neil]

If you want to read a story about a truly horrifying control system freakout and failure to thrive, here it is. It's about DCS. Apparently the TIU is inadvertently and unintentionally designed to fail frequently and rapidly with typical voltage transients. Explains some of the problems people frequently encounter with error messages, and the problems many clubs and modular layouts have experienced with crappy transmission reliability. Really, really ugly. No one's at fault, but there is real trouble in Columbia MD to get this fixed, pronto.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/wea ... mth?page=1

[jlong]

If you want to read a story about a truly horrifying control system freakout and failure to thrive, here it is. It's about DCS. Apparently the TIU is inadvertently and unintentionally designed to fail frequently and rapidly with typical voltage transients. Explains some of the problems people frequently encounter with error messages, and the problems many clubs and modular layouts have experienced with crappy transmission reliability. Really, really ugly. No one's at fault, but there is real trouble in Columbia MD to get this fixed, pronto.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/wea ... mth?page=1

Update. MTH will be furnishing spare TSV's diodes and a roll of solder with their Tits Up units.

[G3750]

If you want to read a story about a truly horrifying control system freakout and failure to thrive, here it is. It's about DCS. Apparently the TIU is inadvertently and unintentionally designed to fail frequently and rapidly with typical voltage transients. Explains some of the problems people frequently encounter with error messages, and the problems many clubs and modular layouts have experienced with crappy transmission reliability. Really, really ugly. No one's at fault, but there is real trouble in Columbia MD to get this fixed, pronto.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/wea ... mth?page=1

The article is absolutely incredible.

Even more incredible is who fixed it. The man has a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from UCLA and designs high speed circuits for NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratories.

I mean, seriously!

George

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Even more incredible is who fixed it.

Actually, that's more of sad commentary on a control system that it takes such qualifications after all the years and band-aid/bubblegum and bailing wire "fixes" to get something that appears to be a very real correction to make it work as advertised.

The only mistake he made was in not patenting it all.

[rex desilets]

Even more incredible is who fixed it.

Actually, that's more of sad commentary on a control system that it takes such qualifications after all the years and band-aid/bubblegum and bailing wire "fixes" to get something that appears to be a very real correction to make it work as advertised.

The only mistake he made was in not patenting it all.

Not sure that his fix is patentable. Adrian has been working with MTH on the problem. Wolf apparently offered him a t-shirt for his help.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Even more incredible is who fixed it.

Actually, that's more of sad commentary on a control system that it takes such qualifications after all the years and band-aid/bubblegum and bailing wire "fixes" to get something that appears to be a very real correction to make it work as advertised.

The only mistake he made was in not patenting it all.

Not sure that his fix is patentable.

Probably as patentable as Wolf's patents were/are....meets a few real criteria though.

Adrian has been working with MTH on the problem. Wolf apparently offered him a t-shirt for his help.

Making it all public is then the best action possible.

[G3750]

Actually, that's more of sad commentary on a control system that it takes such qualifications after all the years and band-aid/bubblegum and bailing wire "fixes" to get something that appears to be a very real correction to make it work as advertised.

The only mistake he made was in not patenting it all.

Not sure that his fix is patentable.

Probably as patentable as Wolf's patents were/are....meets a few real criteria though.

Adrian has been working with MTH on the problem. Wolf apparently offered him a t-shirt for his help.

Making it all public is then the best action possible.

Yeah, 14+ years of pushing the pain and dysfunction onto customers (actually using THEM as Beta-Testers).

Unconscionable. Sort of like this...
http://dilbert.com/strip/1994-09-29

I'm sure the t-shirt has 3 arm holes and doesn't fit.

[chuck]

I think were over 10 years in "beta" possibly 15, and we're closing in on 20 is you count when it was announced back in 2000.

[G3750]

I think were over 10 years in "beta" possibly 15, and we're closing in on 20 is you count when it was announced back in 2000.

Pretty much.

I know that in my professional career if I ever produced something as problematic as DCS, I would have been fired. And I would have deserved it.

George

[Neil]

What's truly shocking is that many of these DCS fans on the OGR board have been hellaciously critical of LC and LC+, which are reliable, functional and inexpensive. They may be educated but they are wildly deficient in reality testing and common sense. I suppose once you've bought into the emperor's clothes, no infrared images showing that he's naked can persuade you from your faith based beliefs. Breathtakingly sad.

[rogruth]

So without all the explanation and everything, have they got this thing fixed?
Are all of the "user errors" of DCS fixed?
Could I buy the needed components, install them and run trains?

Remember that I run a conventional layout.

[rogruth]

Is DCS getting fixed and Lionels system(s) being shut down?

[G3750]

What's truly shocking is that many of these DCS fans on the OGR board have been hellaciously critical of LC and LC+, which are reliable, functional and inexpensive. They may be educated but they are wildly deficient in reality testing and common sense. I suppose once you've bought into the emperor's clothes, no infrared images showing that he's naked can persuade you from your faith based beliefs. Breathtakingly sad.

You're right, of course.

It's my understanding that TMCC licensing was offered to MTH by Lionel in the late 1990s (someone correct me if I'm wrong). But MTH wasn't interested.

After that, it became my impression that DCS was announced prematurely in an attempt to "freeze" the command control market. Interestingly enough, this was a tactic employed repeatedly by IBM when they had machines that were late to market. MTH did a number of demonstrations for at least a year (maybe more?) in the attempt to have users wait for something much better than TMCC.

And make no mistake, DCS is extremely feature-rich (as any 2nd generation system hoping to capture market share must be). There were significant advantages over TMCC:

• Ability to run TMCC-equipped locomotives on the same track as PS-2 engines.
• A superior user interface using a hierarchical and logical menu structure.
• Better hand-held with mini-screen and soft keys (buttons that change function to match the menu displayed).
• Ability to upgrade features and correct bugs by downloading new versions of the software.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the guts of the system - the signal transmission logic, signal transmission strategy, and TIU hardware were all less well executed.

I would also guess that once DCS developers got the system to work, they boxed it up and declared victory. Based on the past 16+ years, I would guess that inadequate beta-testing was done inside MTH. And while MTH employed various individuals as "DCS Ambassadors", their real role was Alpha-testing. End users, hobbyists, became the beta-testers.

Slick interface, low reliability. And now in this thread on OGR we are seeing the proof of that.

George

[G3750]

So without all the explanation and everything, have they got this thing fixed?
Are all of the "user errors" of DCS fixed?
Could I buy the needed components, install them and run trains?

Remember that I run a conventional layout.

Roger, that's a great question.

My suspicion is "no". TMCC is a straight-forward system to run. Even if these "fixes" solve some of the DCS issues, it's difficult to know if they have all been solved. And make no mistake, DCS is very complicated.

Frankly, I'm not sure anyone knows the answer to your question.

Caveat emptor.

George