Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

[jlong]

George,
My first comment is that if your track plan satisfies you no more needs to be said concerning the overall plan.
Comments about details would certainly be encouraged.
Many of the really great suggestions I see above would call for a complete revision of your plan. I didn't think you asked for that.

George brought his plan before a circle committee and asked for thoughts and comments because he will be putting a huge investment in time and money into the actual construction of this. He will live with this for practically the rest of his life. True, many of the comments require a complete revision of the plan. The comments however come from experience and have a lot of validity. Especially what Jerry is saying. As John Armstrong wrote in George's book, you have to weigh the haves and have nots and balance them within the fixed conditions you are working with. That's what we are doing here. We're not saying "do this George". We are saying "consider this".

[G3750]

George,
My first comment is that if your track plan satisfies you no more needs to be said concerning the overall plan.
Comments about details would certainly be encouraged.
Many of the really great suggestions I see above would call for a complete revision of your plan. I didn't think you asked for that.
Maybe this is what you wanted since it will be awhile before the new layout will be started maybe you will change the over-all plan.
The only thing that seems odd to me is all trains going counter clockwise. Might that not become a little boring?

Roger,

I appreciate what you wrote concerning my satisfaction with the track plan. My thought was to ask for comments to test my assumptions and challenge my biases. Typically, my vision tends to out run my ability to execute. I would be surprised if I ended up radically changing the plan, but I wanted some fresh input on it. I wanted to see if I had specified anything that was really odd or difficult.

The new Panhandle track plan is essentially the original concept on steroids. While it is bigger in size, the plan reflects (to this point) what I have learned. It's much more simple, having eliminated grades, hidden track, and multiple levels.

As for only having trains travel counter-clockwise, a folded dog-bone does allow for trains to pass each other and give the perception of 2-directional travel. In my mind, the trains are Eastbound and Westbound. And my other reason (as discussed in a previous post) is the operational aspects of the yards and the industries. I don't think it will be boring, but I still can run trains both ways. We just have to watch out for Gomez Addams events!

George

[G3750]

George,
My first comment is that if your track plan satisfies you no more needs to be said concerning the overall plan.
Comments about details would certainly be encouraged.
Many of the really great suggestions I see above would call for a complete revision of your plan. I didn't think you asked for that.

George brought his plan before a circle committee and asked for thoughts and comments because he will be putting a huge investment in time and money into the actual construction of this. He will live with this for practically the rest of his life. True, many of the comments require a complete revision of the plan. The comments however come from experience and have a lot of validity. Especially what Jerry is saying. As John Armstrong wrote in George's book, you have to weigh the haves and have nots and balance them within the fixed conditions you are working with. That's what we are doing here. We're not saying "do this George". We are saying "consider this".

John,

That is well and accurately stated and that's how I took the comments.

Further, I am very appreciative of all my friends and well-wishers on this forum who expressed comments and suggestions.

When I get the benchwork done and some track is down, you all have a standing invitation to visit.

George

[G3750]

Shamelessly stolen from a thread on NK for layout design. Once in a while, even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

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Having built a few layouts.. to the one I now have in my own barn.. I would consider these valuable lessons.

-No duck unders.. Having those suck. Especially for those with back, leg, hip issues.. if you feel you need a duck under.. then built the walkway area with a lift out bridge or something similar. because ducking under sucks!

There are no duck-unders. I do have access hatches and hand holes.

-reach.. only make the benchwork as far as you can reach.. if it's outta reach, that is where your issues will be. If you can get to the tables from both sides, then your reach to center from each side is your width.

I tried to locate the access holes so that everything can be reached.

-height.. I would have made mine Chest height.. It isn't.. and I contemplate raising the layout every day.

This is my thinking behind the 50" height, although I've not finalized the height yet.

-electrical... do that before scenery.. at least the bus wires.. get them run under the layout.

There was never any question of doing it any other way. In fact, I will do a complete shake-out of the track, electrical components (except buildings), and operational characteristics before any scenery is started.

-height of scenery works better to the eye then depth of scenery..

Agreed.

-make all benchwork modular. So if you don't like something or want a change, taking out the old and inserting a new piece is easier... Plus you can work on the new piece while the old one is still in place and you can still run trains.

I think that's easier said than done. I tried that and it is impractical (unless I don't understand what he meant). Modular should mean modular in every respect.

-For O-Scale, use 3/4" plywood sub road bed.. For the areas where sometimes where risers get a little wide, the plywood being a little thicker, won't sag. because 1/2" will. Don't use flake board.. that stuff sucks for model RR. If you get flake board and use water against it for scenery, the flake board seems to expand and never contract.

I am planning on 3/4" plywood sub roadbed. Flake board? Does he mean homosote? Not in my plans. I've learned my lessons well regarding sub roadbed.

-Wide isles.. A must, you can do it with the room you have.. 30x50.. Trust me, it is worth the effort to have these.. I have two spots where the isles gets close, but they ope right up to wide ares.. I also didn't make those areas points of interests.. make your points of interests where the isles are wide. so people can gather easier without hitting benchwork..

Agree completely. My narrowest aisle is 32".

-If your thinking of having a turn table.. One where the tracks are coming out all around it, that becomes an area of interest and people gather around it.. I did mine where the mainline went behind the house and people can see into the roundhouse.. and also get right up to the table to see the loco's turn.. This turntable idea came to me this past spring and I changed the whole yard and turn table area into another part of the layout in another area of the room to accommodate this. It works out great now..

No turntable.

-Also, with your yard, well, before i forget, have a staging yard.. one hidden under mountains or there of.. then your yard itself won't be cramped with cars as mine was till I did this.. (I am also ridding cars of later dates because my model RR is set around 1977. So this purge is setting up nicely as I now have room for the cars that fit the timeline.) Also, keep switches within easy arm length.. repair is easer etc.. I did redesign the yard as stated above, and am going to again because of the railcar purge etc.. Plus, the yard is smaller and more manageable. well, the whole layout is..

The staging yard will be at layout level and behind a backdrop. It won't be part of the main layout. I'm done with hidden yards and tracks.

Also, keep this in mind when you design.. 1) model the places as scenes you love as a kid, adult.. just don't put track down for the sake of putting track down.. you will get bored with it. I learned this on the first layout here in the barn.. I thought I had all the room and when the layout was up.. it sucked.. so a friend came over and told me it sucked and gave me this advice.. number 1 again, model scene you love, figure out the top five scenes you love and design them into the layout, then the next five and so one. you find that the layout fills out nicely and you will want to work on it all the time.. Mine is (3) years old now and it is awesome to me! I;m not biased or anything! HA! But I can't wait to work on it when i have the time.. Or add to it or whatever.. I am always designing for the better.. I love running it, showing it, etc.. with these changes too, I have to write into this mag to show my updates as the model RR was published in O-Gauge at about two year ago..

Yes! Everything on the Panhandle is there because it is part of a memory or a place that I like.


Thanks for posting this, Jerry!

George

[chuck]

"Flake Board" is probably OSB (oriented strand board). Great for sheathing, OK for roof decking, pretty much sucks for everything else.

"Modular" construction MAY be a reference to making up the bench work in smaller "chunks" that are bolted together. This does allow some flexibility if you decide to make a major change to an area. If you build the benches with maximum lengths of wood it saves time in terms of cutting and it might have additional rigidity but it makes renovations almost impossible. I think the reference is to the techniques used by Dunham Studios and Train Worx where the layout is build in their shops and then shipped to the client. This technique may also be easier to build as you are working in smaller chunks and that can be a blessing if you don't have two or four extra hands to hold stuff in place. Weigh out the pro's and cons (time/ease of construction/added expense/possible flexibility) and go from there. I don't think either method is better per se.

[Jim K]

George,

Looking at your original track plan I would ask you to consider adding at least one more "red square"
in the area of the layout to the right of the entry aisle. You have a lot of space with track there.
Not sure how you could get to that track running along the wall at the bottom. It could be removable
as that area is sure prime real estate for scenery etc. Also, I have seen this done on two larger layouts:
you could install a camera in the staging track area at the far right of the space. That looks like a
long crawl to get to the first access area. These cameras are cheap black & white and are wired back to
a plain BW monitor. You can connect about 5 cameras and have the system cycle through them. You don't
need that but it would be nice to easily see the staging tracks every once in a while just to verify reality.
Just a thought.

Jim K

[G3750]

George,

Looking at your original track plan I would ask you to consider adding at least one more "red square"
in the area of the layout to the right of the entry aisle. You have a lot of space with track there.
Not sure how you could get to that track running along the wall at the bottom. It could be removable
as that area is sure prime real estate for scenery etc. Also, I have seen this done on two larger layouts:
you could install a camera in the staging track area at the far right of the space. That looks like a
long crawl to get to the first access area. These cameras are cheap black & white and are wired back to
a plain BW monitor. You can connect about 5 cameras and have the system cycle through them. You don't
need that but it would be nice to easily see the staging tracks every once in a while just to verify reality.
Just a thought.

Jim K

My apologies. I think I failed to adequately describe the space around the layout. Maybe this helps.

PRR Panhandle 2.0 v015.jpg (460.59 KiB) Viewed 7590 times

I didn't show any detail for the interior wall at the bottom of layout, but the stairs to the basement and the door to the workshop are on it.
And I did add the engine pocket in the staging yard as well as lengthened the passing siding near the entrance to the Weirton Steel yard.

George

[Jim K]

George,

You probably did describe it but I did not get it. Okay you have nice access to the table.

Thanks,

Jim K

[jlong]

I didn't show any detail for the interior wall at the bottom of layout, but the stairs to the basement and the door to the workshop are on it.
And I did add the engine pocket in the staging yard as well as lengthened the passing siding near the entrance to the Weirton Steel yard.

George

I wasn't sure if the green area was isle space or not. I counted 11 squares in the vertical direction (vertical direction on my computer screen ) and assumed it may be. That frees up your plan by quite a bit.

I'm trying to visualize a shelf system with a peninsula for the steel mill. Doesn't seem to click. That is one big freakin mill.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

That is one big freakin mill.

It'll be operational,

[jlong]

[G3750]

I've actually been thinking about one of those Topside Creepers, but so far I've avoided having to buy one.

But you're right, that is one big freakin' mill.

George

[G3750]

That is one big freakin mill.

It'll be operational,

Back in 2009, I took my Open Hearth (complete with operating smokestacks and power supply) to an NMRA division meeting.

The HO members were not happy because I was polluting the air.

I didn't get a single vote at the "Bring N Brag". (Yes, it was a vast HO conspiracy!!!! )

George

[Rufus T. Firefly]

That is one big freakin mill.

It'll be operational,

Back in 2009, I took my Open Hearth (complete with operating smokestacks and power supply) to an NMRA division meeting.

The HO members were not happy because I was polluting the air.

I didn't get a single vote at the "Bring N Brag". (Yes, it was a vast HO conspiracy!!!! )

George

Susquehanna Division?

[jlong]

Back in 2009, I took my Open Hearth (complete with operating smokestacks and power supply) to an NMRA division meeting.

The HO members were not happy because I was polluting the air.
George

Protosmoke will do that to people.