Amazing but sorta useless facts

[up148]

Well, now that I learned that posting photos can be much easier than I thought......your all in trouble. I will most likely bore the sh*t out of most of you.......sorry.

I'm so impressed with my KTM built FEF-3. I always consider MG and USH locos to be pretty much basic brass models and a distant 2nd place to Korean built models. I knew they had drives that would outlast all of us, but I considered most of the casting details to be very crude....wrong.

For a model built back in the 60's or maybe the 70's, it's a real eye opener for me on fidelity and quality of castings. I've been gathering parts from many sources (PSC directly and KEY & OMI indirectly) and I can tell you these original 50-60 year old castings are superior to most of the Korean built parts I'm getting..........in both fidelity to scale and quality of the castings.

I never really looked at any of the USH FEF-3's I've owned over the years as they were just daily drivers. And I haven't looked at the smoke lifters that came with the model since packing it away in the late 90's, but checking them out just now I found a minor detail that blows me away.

Just like the prototype, these smoke lifters have a metal stiffener edge all the way around the perimeter of the sheet metal. Some poor Japanese artisan had to solder on this tiny, tiny edge and I just missed this feature. Also, the pressed rivets are just as impressive and are evenly done throughout the lifter....what a stellar job!

[gregj410]

And I haven't looked at the smoke lifters that came with the model since packing it away in the late 90's, but checking them out just now I found a minor detail that blows me away.

You can’t rush into these things Butch
I see they are highly detailed for sure! See what you been missing out on all these years.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Well, now that I learned that posting photos can be much easier than I thought......

Good news!

And an interesting topic. Looking forward to seeing more as you go forward.

[bob turner]

The other little known factoid might be that the construction of most MG/USH is more robust than subsequent imports. Sunset/3rd Rail went a long way toward restoring heavy gauge brass to boiler construction.

A couple of notable exceptions are the SP 2-8-0 and 4-8-0, and the later Sunset SP Atlantic - those models had very light gauge boilers. If you are in to really fine detail, I can recommend the PSC Cab Forward series. If you would rather have something made from heavy gauge brass, your choice is generally MG/USH and Sunset/3rd Rail.

I am an SPF, and appreciate the NYC Hudson, and have at least one Seaboard steamer, but my semi-expertise is SP. My opinion is that the USH AC-12, the Max Grey MT-4 and AC-4, and the USH MT-3 are all great, robust models. The Max 4-10-2 is exceptionally good. Stay away from the Max cab forward AC-12.

I am a student of Challengers and FEFs, but cannot really comment on those with respect to which you should go for - mine are all Lobaugh.

[sarge]

I'm in agreement with you, Bob, though western roads were never my main interest so I can't really speak to them.

It always was well-known in our generation that KTM in the MG/USH/Westside era were the benchmark of consistent, neat, and robust construction, though I don't know that the new generation behind us know it, so a good thing to have been said.

I must admit having avoided SS/3r's brass stuff due to fidelity liberties and the absolutely abysmal assembly of several that have been through here, especially in regards to the rods and valve gear; dead soft, even the pins which were merely pressed in place with nary a lick of solder. I've had to rebuild several after they've shed their motion, having to straighten and reform various rods after one lost its pin and stabbed the ballast, turning it into a bowtie and pulling the rest of the pins out, showering the roadbed with bits. No amount of boiler thickness makes up for the lack of QC and the "cheapness" for me, anyway. That's not getting into the compromises carried through from the three-rail versions to the two-rail, some of which are just not worth the effort to fix, not when there are earlier models of similar with far better bones.

KTM made the best Hudsons (NYC and B&A my favourite US railroads to this day). The Westside J1e by far is the best all-rounder for the J1 series and the PSC Crown J3 is the champ for J3s, PSC's destreamlined Hudson captures the almost brutal look equal to all others and with the build quality Butch is showing. Of streamlined Hudsons, I favour Westside's KTM versions over the Smithsonian one, and the WWII configuration version is one of my three votes for the best. Three? Yep. Westside J1e, PSC destreamlined J3a, Westside WWII streamlined J3a.

Of course it's all personal preference based on what's important to you, but for fidelity, performance, and quality, they are awfully hard to beat.

[up148]

There is no doubt KTM built the most robust brass models ever, but it's a delight to finally learn (by comparison) just how correct they were in fidelity of scale and the casting quality. I've read Bob's comment for years about the thickness of the sheet brass used by the Korean builders (except 3rd Rail) and it's so true....they even feel lighter and more fragile.

One exception might be KOH's, but I only owned one of his Challengers for a few years, not sure about the others. But, the Challenger felt to be heavier gauge sheet brass when handling it. Another might be Henry Bultmann's models. I owned a SP 4-10-2 for a short while and it felt very heavy and robust.....not sure if it was due to the gauge of the brass sheet or not.

I recently learned from a good friend, who was a PSC dealers back in the day, that all PSC locos were not KTM built....I didn't know that.......and it's easy to tell the difference once I learned. KTM models had very few if any opening or working details, even on their end of the KTM line built Big Boy and Challengers. In contrast, the Koreans added opening everything when they took over building. But, he added, that although Korean built PSC models were better detailed, they didn't compare when it came to running qualities....so KTM remains the pinnacle in that department.

Yeah Greg, this project has been a long time coming. I've learned and relearned so much about the FEF's I didn't know or forgot and since I enjoy the research as much as owning the model. it's been a ball.

[Erik C Lindgren]

Very nice Butch!

[sarge]

Butch, having also had a PSC dealership I can tell you the vast majority of their product was Korean-made. As far as KTM product, I remember the Crown Hudsons, Niagara, a Big Boy, was there a Challenger, a DDA40x, and not much else if anything. I'd not be surprised if all were originally commissioned by Westside and the projects were picked up by PSC.

To be honest, PSC stuff was all over the map and there was a ton of it. One of their best outside KTM was the NYC F12 Tenwheeler. Way overproduced so prices remain soft on them, but stellar models. As an example of how inconsistent, hot on their heels was the abysmal PRR B6; I don't know of anyone who pre-ordered it kept it once it arrived.

[up148]

I didn't know what percentage of PSC models were Japanese and what was Korean. I know the models you listed were KTM and yes the DD40 was KTM built as well, as the DD35A & B and I think even a SD40 of some version. All these diesels had a really funky drive to power all axles of each truck. They used a gear drive along the inside of one truck and I think there was a lot of gear noise. I have a Crown DD40 that was damaged in shipment and I've put it on the back burner.....one day I may try to fix it. These diesels were all typical KTM build being very heavy duty and robust. The Crown came with small motors powering the roof fans....gimmicks really, but they worked.

I was also told the quality of the models was all over the place after the son took over the business. Maybe just sour grapes, as everything PSC imported was too expensive for me back then.

[bob turner]

I bought one - an SP AC-6SF. Working on it was a nightmare. Getting grease in the gearboxes was almost impossible ( I did it). The detail was delicate. the pilot beam fell off (we carefully drilled and tapped to re-attach it).

Traded it for a USH GS-4 and a Max SP Mogul - a good trade!

Bought PSC Pullmans, then discovered the roof end contour was way off. Still have a string of their nice Harriman cars with accurate roof contour, and one Pullman from later production with corrected ends. I actually prefer running my Walthers cars.



Example of fairly good PSC.

[sarge]

Butch, I think you're being fair, as they shopped a number of builders in Korea, whether they were shopping price or it was because of the shear volume of stuff they were bringing in I couldn't say. The running joke was PSC was the Model of the Month Club, but they were bringing in dozens if not a hundred different ones a year in O in the heyday. The PSC list was the wishbook; if the dealer network got enough reservations on anything floated out in the list, it got made.

In general, the quality from Korea got better, but PSC was always a bit of a crapshoot because of the number of builders and perhaps the speed made the research "impatient". Overland cultivated pretty much one builder, Ajin, and things got steadily better over time. Likewise, Oriental worked with Samhongsa and the improvement was steady. Both were far more prolific in HO, of course, and N brass was making inroads in the late '80s, too.

It was an interesting time!

[E7]

Any of you Goo Roos care to speculate if we will ever see much of anything brass wise in the future..........like I could afford to buy anything right now!

Rich (in name only)

[sarge]

For what it's worth, my speculation is "no". Not because of any current political whinge but something far more basic. Simply because no-one has cultivated that next country after Japan, then Korea, then China, for what appear to be sound business reasons.

No interested marketplace anymore, everyone wanting finished works of art for next-to-nothing; for whatever reason, there has to be a market to serve, an agent/importer to cultivate a manufacturer, and a manufacturer that deliver, all three agreeing on a pricepoint. Right now that answer seems to be D) none-of-the-above. (Which explains the MMW fiasco. GRIN!)

[86TA355SR]

Sunset/3rd Rail recently announced a few brass steam locomotives. If they’re built TBD…we’ll see if the orders are there for a run. But I found it hopeful that “new” brass steam isn’t completely dead…just a few months ago SM said new brass steam was no longer on the horizon. Times may have changed. The hurdles to get models produced are beyond anything most of us would deal with today, I’m thankful for those that can deliver.

The USH/KTM models are a favorite around the workshop. Heavy brass and bulletproof drives. A little detailing, simple upgrades, and they’re fantastic models. Plus, there’s satisfaction in building something unique and spraying paint on one of these brutes.

The FEF is probably the most accurate of the UP steam built by them. The major details and dimensions are well done.

Look forward to your build.

Aaron

[up148]

Thanks Aaron. I totally agree on USH models and being able to personalize them.

I advertised for a coal tender on YS and a West Coast buddy read the post. He had a USH coal tender and needed the oil tender, so we just traded...............both of us got what we needed.

Butch