Long Island "Exurban" Train

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De Bruin
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Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby De Bruin » Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:43 am

The Paint Shop string has become cumbersome due to it's size and the fact that a lot of the links no longer work so I'll start this as a new topic.
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Amongst my inventory of Walthers passenger cars (kits and second-hand stock ranging from nice quality builds to “skunky” junkers,) I had five 2nd-hand examples of their #4853 coach which, to the best of my knowledge, has no prototype beyond “approximating” Osgood Bradley MU’s for the NYC, NH and LI. I decided to re-build a pair of them as Long Island “exurban” coaches in the “World’s Fair” scheme employed in the 1960’s. Not perfect matches either. Since LI’s P72 was the unpowered version of their MP72 MU, it should have the same angled car ends which these obviously don’t have and of course that split between roof and end casting...yuck. Had to make separate end doors too to get the port-hole shaped windows, a legacy of former PRR ownership found on a lot of the Long Island’s coach stock. Likewise, some of the windows needed plating over to more approximate the look of the prototype. "The compromises we make......"

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The two candidates for rebuilding came from a large collection from Montana of which almost all the equipment was assembled and finished in Great Northern, brush painted in that Dark Green and Orange Empire Builder scheme and the sides and ends required a lengthy tank dip in Pine Sol and then a coat of Aircraft Remover and brush elbow equity to get to the state above. Both cars were poorly fit as well with one having too many creases in the metal sides to salvage, requiring some shopping on Ebay to score an unbuilt kit, the remainder which I’ll later employ using some of the other #48xx series sides in my TBD pile.

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Since I was building a pair I was able to save set-up time by doing the large step components for both cars at the same time as in roofs, then fabricating doors, interior liners, floors, underbody parts and furniture, soldered sides and the accompanying painting and decaling etc. Past the above point they’re basically completed one at a time. Note I used basswood blocks in place of the heavy white metal interior bulkheads, not very scale but the larger contact area makes for a larger bonding surface for the sides and doors. I’m most concerned that the interior looks correct through the windows and that you can handle the cars without crushing the sides.

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Island Model Works listed nice 1:48th P72 and MP72 car bodies in cast resin sometime ago and I regret not springing for a pair when they were available, though I did use their decals for the letterboards and fictitious road numbers. The Dashing Dans are from K4 Supply’s immaculate LI set.

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I did mod all the cast ends for marker lamp fixtures, though only wired up the tail end car for them. Note the LI did not employ diaphragms on these cars or on any other suburban car classes until the advent of the bi-level C3’s. Paint is by Tru-Color, aluminum window sash created with decal stripes, trucks by Lobaugh, roof parts are BCM, underbody parts by Scale City Design who thankfully offered the correct A/C hardware, battery boxes etc. Interior furniture by Precision via Maroon.

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Light strips by MTH care of Maroon as well, track power supply for the markers by Circuitron.
If I had to draw a single conclusion from this project it's that next time, given how rough these finished cars turned out, I'll try and be more careful about selecting candidates for rebuilding, likewise spending more time on sanding and resealing the wood roofs.
The impetus for this train is an Oriental C420 I recently received from Joe Grillo, nicely painted by the importer in the Long Island orange and grey, I will post shots of the rest of the cars and the locomotive as I complete them.
Last edited by De Bruin on Fri Feb 28, 2025 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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bob turner
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby bob turner » Thu Feb 06, 2025 11:20 am

Those really look good. I have thought about adding P70 modenized cars to my Walthers fleet, and assume it is roughly the same car.

Also really great to see Pitogo back here. We really need a few more participants.

I also note the striking colors on Maroon's GN E6. Not sure the colors are correct, but they sure look good. We are giving consideration to doing a Shutterfly "Doorstop Diesel" book. my SP Steam book turned out quite well.

bob turner
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby bob turner » Thu Feb 06, 2025 8:03 pm

on the same subject, there was a nice thread on B-C cars on OGR with a lot of historical information. A poster attached photos of his latest find, didn't appear to be offending anyone or posting in the wrong forum or anything that would excite the censors, but they closed it.

sleepmac
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby sleepmac » Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:22 pm

Bob, I wondered the same about that closed B/C topic. It seems to be no rhyme or reason as to reason for the closure.

Dan Weinhold

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R.K. Maroon
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby R.K. Maroon » Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:35 pm

Pete, those coaches really turned out well. From what I have seen on eBay, Walthers seems to have sold a good number of those coach kits, but very rarely do you see any that are track-ready, much less any built up with the full monty like these. The irregular height window shades are a nice touch. How did you do the roof seams? Are those decals?

Speaking of decals, I am having a hard time imaging the tedium required to build up those window sashes from decal stripes. Five decals per window pair, eleven windows per side, two sides, two cars....that's 220 individual decals. I bow to your compulsion!!!

Jim
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webenda
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby webenda » Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:55 pm

I see your reservations, De Bruin, but they all look outstanding.

As for the window sash... :shock: I agree with Maroon.

I have never been able to even get lettering on straight, even after watching someone on YouTube show me how. That is probably why I settled on 3-rail, it all comes pre-painted and lettered and is seldom prototypical. All the more reason I admire the work of model railroaders who have the skill and perseverance to make and/or modify trains that look real.
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Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
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De Bruin
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby De Bruin » Fri Feb 07, 2025 1:37 am

Thanks for the kind comments guys, always appreciated.
bob turner wrote: I have thought about adding P70 modernized cars to my Walthers fleet, and assume it is roughly the same car….
Yes in that the P70 and the P72 are both 80’ long cars, however the P70 was a true heavyweight car while the P72 was lightweight, and while there were a legion of different window and floor plans within the PRR’s P70 class over decades there was only one class of the LI P72. On a related note, I was lamenting to Sarge about how these Walther’s were too long to be P72’s and he enlightened me that the PRR’s passenger car class numbers were derived from the interior length between the car’s crash posts, hence 80’ minus eight feet for the two vestibules equals 72’ hence P72 as the vestibules/car ends were on the outer side of the P72’s crash posts.

bob turner wrote:…..there was a nice thread on B-C cars on OGR …. but they closed it.
Yeah, closed before I could post some BCM car bodies I have in the two-tone Lark/Cascade scheme. Kind of discourages one from posting there doesn’t it?

R.K. Maroon wrote:…………Walthers seems to have sold a good number of those coach kits, but very rarely do you see any that are track-ready, much less any built up with the full monty…
Agreed, they must have sold a lot of them, perhaps only rivaled in number by the 9175 P70FAR and their B60 dbl door Bag’, D78 Diner and generic 75 ft Coach.
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The rest of the 48XX series are all based on pre-war NYC, PRR, UP and SP Pullman LW plans but these coaches are enigmatic, the catalog/decal drawing doesn’t even match the actual kit.

R.K. Maroon wrote:How did you do the roof seams?
It’s a masking trick, you notch tiny parallel, evenly spaced, cuts into the edge of the roof, and then run a single thread between and through them the length of the car, paint and remove after painting. Like lacing a boot.

webenda wrote: As for the window sash... :shock: I agree with Maroon.
Optical illusion, actually there are only 132 discrete strip sections :mrgreen: , I only did one vertical in the center of each window only. One's eye “assumes” the window’s two edges have it, in part because depending on the angle the liner edge is visible through the window or the glaze is slightly recessed behind the window/car side and the window's edge is not visible due to the angle.
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Chris Webster
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby Chris Webster » Fri Feb 07, 2025 1:26 pm

I think the cars look great! I also admire how you're recycling/reusing old models and making them much better.
De Bruin wrote:and of course that split between roof and end casting...yuck.
Luckily you live and display the cars in an area where most people aren't familiar with the prototype cars. :lol:
bob turner wrote:on the same subject, there was a nice thread on B-C cars on OGR with a lot of historical information. A poster attached photos of his latest find,
I went and read that thread - I assume they closed it because the last post is really a "I want to purchase" post that belongs in a buy/sell/trade forum but it appears that OGR euthanized their buy/sell forum - at least I can't see it.

Coincidentally, I've bought some items from the very same seller that the OGR poster said "doesn't seem to know much about trains." That's an understatement. The seller listed most of their items as being "Kadee brand" which I assume is because the only brand name they see is the "Kadee" on the underside of the coupler boxes. The seller doesn't have original boxes, so they just tape pieces of bubble wrap around the models. They then ship in used Amazon boxes made of really thin cardboard -- Amazon actually prints "This Box Is Now Made With Less Material [QR Code] Scan to see why less material matters" on its boxes now. The seller also throws in a few pieces of wadded up paper in the box.

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De Bruin
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby De Bruin » Tue Feb 11, 2025 12:30 am

Thanks Chris, regarding those split roof/car end castings I should have employed some of those BCM style end plates, (many thanks to Jay for those, a life saver for my Sunbeam project) though would’ve made assembly and roof removal more complicated. To your point though it’ll bother me more than most anyone else around here.

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I also have this Weaver coach making a nice ex-B&M pre-war Osgood Bradley car, classified by the LI as a P74B; one of the 30 car fleet McGinnis sold to the LI after B&M replaced all their conventional trains with RDC’s. I passed on applying the grey and orange scheme though due to the deeply recessed windows as I’m trying to have some boundaries regarding certain rabbit holes, so this one got the predecessor solid grey “Tichy” scheme. I originally scored it off Ebay for cheap, undecorated factory three rail, swapped out the trucks with a beautiful 2 rail LV version which in turn happily went for a very nice (and rare) profit for me on Ebay (two collectors bidding it way up.)


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This is a nice model albeit as an undec required multiple scrubbings prior to priming to get the release agent off the shell . Finished with Trucolor LI Grey paint and that K4 Supply set. These OB cars and Weaver's B60 and Pullman Troop Sleeper (zinc pest on those notwithstanding) were an excellent value and I have quite a few of all three models. The factory light strip is nice too.
The prototype P74B’s like the P-72’s were popular with passengers, considered good riders compared to the P-54 “Ping Pong” coaches they replaced, likewise both classes air conditioning was appreciated in the summer in contrast to the open window P-54’s.
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R.K. Maroon
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby R.K. Maroon » Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:05 pm

The Weaver coach looks sharp. I am not a natural fan of plastic models, but I can't deny that many if not most are fine looking models. Their availability certainly makes it a whole lot easier to finish off or put together a passenger consist. Toward that end, I have bought quite a few myself in recent years. I'd trade them all for kit-built equivalents, but those only come around every now and then.

Pete, tell us more about that "release agent". How can you tell it's there and how can you tell when you have successfully removed it?

Jim
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Carey Williams
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby Carey Williams » Sat Feb 15, 2025 1:50 am

Great job on the "Dashing Dan" commuter cars .
Cheers Carey

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De Bruin
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby De Bruin » Fri Feb 28, 2025 12:12 am

Thanks guys, yeah, my experience with the release agent on this Weaver body (PVC?) was a translucent film with some random pale greenish pooling dried around corners and edges of the car ends. I used rubbing alcohol, and for the stubborn bits, a quick rub with “Goof-Off” using a smooth cloth like a T shirt rag, all followed by soap and water and quick drying. Sarge advised me that he uses Ronson lighter fluid to remove the agent as it works well and leaves little if any residue, I’ll try that next time.
OK, moving towards to the front of the consist, past kit-rebuilds and that repainted Weaver, up to the imported brass portion of our LI “exurban” train care of Joe Grillo. As an aside the “ex-urban service” serviced the eastern end of the Long Island, beyond the end of the electrified territory with conventional locomotive-hauled trains on four separate routes, therein my concept for this train as a sixties era off-season rush-hour train out the “mainline” to Greenport.

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During the summer the LI ran 12 to 15 car solid 1st class trains out the 115 mile Montauk Branch (115 miles) Friday evening and back Sunday using second hand heavyweight sleepers like this as well as parlor cars and parlor obs. Above is a PSC 12-1 sleeper painted in the LI’s parlor car scheme albeit running in my off-season consist as the sole 1st class car. Joe conveyed the car to me in this scheme and I have no idea whom to credit for the distinctive paint job.

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Next up this Custom NJ B60, which a few of you have seen before as Joe and I did this back in 2016 (see page one “Paint Shop”) though now finally with matching letterboards, nicer looking car albeit I’m thinking how I would create a BM-60 baggage mail to go with it. These NJ’s B-60’s are exquisite and I found it easier to work with than the Weaver version.

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Finally the motive power that inspired this, an Oriental C420, “factory painted,” amazingly well designed and built model albeit some 40 plus years old as Joe purchased this directly from Oriental in 1988.

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My only contribution here was applying the road # to the cab sides and bug boards, re-wiring the headlight (these ran long-hood forward) and applying glazing.

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Sarge informs me that the proprietor of Oriental, Roy Schnoor, grew up on Long Island hence the paint scheme and by extension I would say the somewhat rare high-hood configuration otherwise seen only on the Monon’s and N&W’s units.
Shots of the entire train and perhaps video of the consist tooling around “track-world” to follow.
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sarge
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby sarge » Fri Feb 28, 2025 5:57 am

Close on the history Pete. The proprietor of Oriental was Anton (Tony) Wenzel. Tony and Tom Marsh were the original partners of Overland Limited when they were in Evansville, Indiana. They split up and Tom moved Overland to Muncie. Tony continued in Evansville as Oriental Limited (note the famous passenger train names as a theme) and a very fruitful relationship with Samhongsa, probably the guy responsible for influencing Sam's development into a builder of high-end stuff.

A brainchild of Tony's and something he was almost obsessed with was a series of HO diecast steam with lostwax brass detail and Sam drives he originally called the Powerhouse series. These pushed HO steam detail and performance to new levels, potentially at "brass" levels of detail. His next move was to spin the brass importing business off, it was sold to a guy whose name escapes me now and set up as Challenger Limited (there's that famous train name theme again) while he gathered his Powerhouse bit, refined the idea, gathered a couple partners (Bob Grubba being one of them) and resources together, and launched another famous-train-name-theme project called Broadway Limited (BLI). That whole market segment today of highly detailed, limited run, high-end non-brass imports in HO arguably started with Tony and Powerhouse.

Roy Schnoor was the proprietor of Mt Vernon Shops in nearby Mt. Vernon Indiana and did Oriental's "factory" paint. Originally from Long Island, neither he nor Tony were shrinking violets as far as personality. Roy is the man who taught me how to paint well and he also was my "in" to doing repairs for Oriental for some years (my first job in the industry; I owe both Roy and Tony my gratitude for my start in what was a very interesting second-career that only ended when I retired from OST). The C-420s were Roy's thing, as he was first and foremost a Long Island modeller (while Tony was pretty enamoured of GN and NP). Both LI versions were done as well as enough variations of high and low-nose components that several prototype specific versions could be done. It was one of the first diesel models in O to be brought in that way rather than in a single somewhat generic version.

I've been enjoying this build very much, Pete; brings back some good memories of good (albeit outspoken and a bit irascible) friends who taught me a lot.

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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby up148 » Fri Feb 28, 2025 9:12 am

Love hearing about the history of the hobby. I've heard bits and pieces of this story over the decades and sadly have forgot too many of the details. I think the story of KTM evolving from MG to PSC would be an interesting story as well as the story of KEY, but I'm not the one to tell it because of too many gaps. I knew a lot of it at one time...........but reading it in print is like meeting an old friend and reminiscing the "good old days" :D .

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R.K. Maroon
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Re: Long Island "Exurban" Train

Postby R.K. Maroon » Tue Mar 04, 2025 12:13 pm

A video of Pete's Long Island train can be seen at the link below:

https://youtu.be/LOcQs4R--WE

We shot this video on Pete's basement layout ("track world", as he calls it) during my recent visit to Atlanta for O Scale South.

Jim
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