Flying in the face of conventional wisdom, I have long held that grease in model loco mechs is absolutely useless. Another bunged up drive crosses my workbench, so some photos to illustrate why the universal use of grease is pure kalmbachery of the worst sort.
Our mechs are what would be known in engineering mechanics as low-speed and low-use systems. As such, friction never warms gears and bearings and grease doesn't flow and lubricate when it's cold. Instead, we have this:
Three spurs are stacked in this CLW box, all nicely greased. The nice cold grease merely squirts out the mesh (see it neatly deposited on the side of the teeth?) of any decently matched set of gears and forms a lovely pocket around each, but doesn't stay on the meshing or bearing surfaces.
The other half of the box; the steel shafts are bone dry where they bear on the brass which, in spite of the wisdom here, is a perfectly good low-speed/low-use bearing surface that should last almost as long as bronze-to-steel as long as the finishes are nice, the contact surfaces are better than minimal, and the interface stays lubricated. That last bit ain't happening here, and it's crucial or that familiar brass-to-steel death spiral is dam near instantaneous. Bronze-to-steel bearing surfaces equally depend on oil to last. BTW, see that lovely shiny worm?
It's not lovely at all, but trouble brewing. The grease has departed the actual contact area of the worm wheel to the worm, easily seen here. Where the grease remains does nothing, no contact, no lubrication.
Scoop it out, degum the bearing surfaces, re-assemble, and oil it. Periodically oil again as maintenance is a requirement not an option, especially on older mechs.
BTW, new mechs and that silly lithium grease are not a solution. Open one up and see where the white stuff is. It ain't where you want it; its where it can squirt out and not be bothered just like any other grease. No warmth, no flow, no use.
The lesson here? Maintain your mechanics and periodically check, clean, and re-oil them. Grease does not mean no-maintenance required. If anything, it means the opposite.
Why grease is useless
Why grease is useless
No-one ever forgets where they buried the hatchet.
Re: Why grease is useless
Interesting topic and evidence/analysis.
First, it looks like it's unfortunate that most gearboxes have so much extra space in them that the grease gets just brushed to the side rather than remain forced in the space of the gears.
Every mech is different, and unless you're an expert in this stuff, IMHO, its hard to know what alloys are used in each mech. Even across the same importer, such as Lionel, the mechs vary decently well across models and era's.
I keep hearing on the 3R side that Red and Tacky is the solution, but maybe that's for those who leave their trains running in a loop for hours at a time everyday. These days, I rarely run what I have because I enjoy building more and typically only run when I have guests, so I fall exactly into the amount of use you suggest is a problem.
With that said, it sounds like you suggest I should degrease my fleet and swap over to using oil. Is that correct and if so, will the 80w-90 oil I have do the job on every mech?
If I run a model say once a year, how often do I need to oil it? Before each use? Does the oil evaporate over time?
Can't I just run a model a few seconds and tell almost immediately if its bone dry and needs additional lubrication? (Poor performance or by sound)
First, it looks like it's unfortunate that most gearboxes have so much extra space in them that the grease gets just brushed to the side rather than remain forced in the space of the gears.
Every mech is different, and unless you're an expert in this stuff, IMHO, its hard to know what alloys are used in each mech. Even across the same importer, such as Lionel, the mechs vary decently well across models and era's.
I keep hearing on the 3R side that Red and Tacky is the solution, but maybe that's for those who leave their trains running in a loop for hours at a time everyday. These days, I rarely run what I have because I enjoy building more and typically only run when I have guests, so I fall exactly into the amount of use you suggest is a problem.
With that said, it sounds like you suggest I should degrease my fleet and swap over to using oil. Is that correct and if so, will the 80w-90 oil I have do the job on every mech?
If I run a model say once a year, how often do I need to oil it? Before each use? Does the oil evaporate over time?
Can't I just run a model a few seconds and tell almost immediately if its bone dry and needs additional lubrication? (Poor performance or by sound)
Focus: 2R O-Scale, SOU/SCL 1967-1972
Blog: http://davejfr0.blogspot.com/
Blog: http://davejfr0.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why grease is useless
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Last edited by Rufus T. Firefly on Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Conservatism: The intense fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is inferior is being treated as your equal.
Re: Why grease is useless
Me? I just look at the axles and journals. Moist is nice. Too much is as bad as none; its not good for it attracts dirt and becomes an abrasive.
I have multiple scenarios that get operated so multiple rosters. That means they shelve until it's their time on the layout. I check them when I clean wheels, which usually is when I bring down this session's scenario.
I use Labelle 107 or 108 on solid bearing surfaces like axles and journals, nice light oils. I use 102 on gears; heavier. A drop is plenty; whatever flows out is wasted so its excess.
Importantly, these are plastic compatible. If you're talking 90w hypoid automotive gearbox oil, that might well not be and its heavier than you might want.
This does become a matter of personal preference, of course.
I have multiple scenarios that get operated so multiple rosters. That means they shelve until it's their time on the layout. I check them when I clean wheels, which usually is when I bring down this session's scenario.
I use Labelle 107 or 108 on solid bearing surfaces like axles and journals, nice light oils. I use 102 on gears; heavier. A drop is plenty; whatever flows out is wasted so its excess.
Importantly, these are plastic compatible. If you're talking 90w hypoid automotive gearbox oil, that might well not be and its heavier than you might want.
This does become a matter of personal preference, of course.
No-one ever forgets where they buried the hatchet.
Re: Why grease is useless
sarge wrote:Me? I just look at the axles and journals. Moist is nice. Too much is as bad as none; its not good for it attracts dirt and becomes an abrasive.
I have multiple scenarios that get operated so multiple rosters. That means they shelve until it's their time on the layout. I check them when I clean wheels, which usually is when I bring down this session's scenario.
I use Labelle 107 or 108 on solid bearing surfaces like axles and journals, nice light oils. I use 102 on gears; heavier. A drop is plenty; whatever flows out is wasted so its excess.
Importantly, these are plastic compatible. If you're talking 90w hypoid automotive gearbox oil, that might well not be and its heavier than you might want.
This does become a matter of personal preference, of course.
Good point on the dirt.
And thanks, I'll grab some 102 next time I'm at a shop or show, which shouldn't be too far away from now. I don't normally clean the wheels until there is problem...maybe I should look to do that once a year.
Focus: 2R O-Scale, SOU/SCL 1967-1972
Blog: http://davejfr0.blogspot.com/
Blog: http://davejfr0.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why grease is useless
I dunno - Raoul Martin told us to use grease, and he was an expert at gearing. I use LaBelle Teflon grease, with SAE 30 on axles and shafts.
My tender-drive models often have a brass pillow block. Without oil (I mean oil within the last month) they will seize up. Bronze would be better, but I wouldn't take the chance.
I think the "Red N Tacky" is wheel bearing grease. Don't use wheel bearing grease in model gearboxes.
I never understood why too much oil is bad - sure, dirt gets on the excess, but if you apply it to the shaft, doesn't it flush out the old dirt-laden oil?
Opinion - not a lubrication expert. Experience with eight hour/six day operation maintenance.
My tender-drive models often have a brass pillow block. Without oil (I mean oil within the last month) they will seize up. Bronze would be better, but I wouldn't take the chance.
I think the "Red N Tacky" is wheel bearing grease. Don't use wheel bearing grease in model gearboxes.
I never understood why too much oil is bad - sure, dirt gets on the excess, but if you apply it to the shaft, doesn't it flush out the old dirt-laden oil?
Opinion - not a lubrication expert. Experience with eight hour/six day operation maintenance.
Re: Why grease is useless
Well, Bob, I can't imagine it doing any good whatsoever unless eight hour six day merry-go-round ops warms the grease, then maybe. You are the exception rather than the rule, though; dam few are doing that. Elsewhere here you have complained about drives failing in that environment, so you aren't using them like the mainstream hobbiest anyway.
Regarding over-oiling, oil plus dirt equals clay. Its an abrasive; a good example is jewelers rouge, a fine abrasive in a clay stick. No, thanks.
An extreme example of low-use low-speed solid bearings and gears are the wards of the clock people. Very very light oil very sparingly and fastidiously applied. I lean more in their direction than think of this stuff as industrial machinery. A model mech is more akin to an instrument drive than a production machinery drive.
Again, we all have our preferences but I have had to do god knows how many mechs in this kind of shape after the previous owner followed Raoul Martin's and many other's council and the mech ended up having eaten itself or become impacted with what amounts to being clay to recommend grease in any form. This time, I had the opportunity to photograph it to make the point since I am documenting a build, so throwing it out there for thought.
Regarding over-oiling, oil plus dirt equals clay. Its an abrasive; a good example is jewelers rouge, a fine abrasive in a clay stick. No, thanks.
An extreme example of low-use low-speed solid bearings and gears are the wards of the clock people. Very very light oil very sparingly and fastidiously applied. I lean more in their direction than think of this stuff as industrial machinery. A model mech is more akin to an instrument drive than a production machinery drive.
Again, we all have our preferences but I have had to do god knows how many mechs in this kind of shape after the previous owner followed Raoul Martin's and many other's council and the mech ended up having eaten itself or become impacted with what amounts to being clay to recommend grease in any form. This time, I had the opportunity to photograph it to make the point since I am documenting a build, so throwing it out there for thought.
No-one ever forgets where they buried the hatchet.
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Re: Why grease is useless
After I got out of the Navy, went into electronics (specifically avionics).
After 3 major layoff cycles in less than 18 months, and the pittance being paid, moved over to auto repair (same logical step-by-step trouble shooting plus I'd done that for over 10 years at that point).
Went to a seminar. Held by major petroleum/lube company.
Rep said there is no grease ever made that will stay between gear faces (automotive, anyway). Pressure makes it dry.
Purpose of grease, he said, was to keep water and dirt away from contact areas and dissipate heat.
Now. You've got dry SHAFTS, that's something different, and on metal shafts/cases, I'd be using Hilton's on it. Does NOT dissipate. Originally designed for irrigation controls where it sat unused for 9 months out of the year, then expected to function instantly. And I would not until I ascertained plastic compatibility on plastic gearboxes.
Personal opinion, in models, absolute best gearing (that WILL hold lube) is doorstop style phenolic or fibre worm gears and steel worm.
The porous worm gear material soaks the stuff up, seems to get warm in use and oozes out a bit. Different scenario than metal worm on metal worm gear.
After 3 major layoff cycles in less than 18 months, and the pittance being paid, moved over to auto repair (same logical step-by-step trouble shooting plus I'd done that for over 10 years at that point).
Went to a seminar. Held by major petroleum/lube company.
Rep said there is no grease ever made that will stay between gear faces (automotive, anyway). Pressure makes it dry.
Purpose of grease, he said, was to keep water and dirt away from contact areas and dissipate heat.
Now. You've got dry SHAFTS, that's something different, and on metal shafts/cases, I'd be using Hilton's on it. Does NOT dissipate. Originally designed for irrigation controls where it sat unused for 9 months out of the year, then expected to function instantly. And I would not until I ascertained plastic compatibility on plastic gearboxes.
Personal opinion, in models, absolute best gearing (that WILL hold lube) is doorstop style phenolic or fibre worm gears and steel worm.
The porous worm gear material soaks the stuff up, seems to get warm in use and oozes out a bit. Different scenario than metal worm on metal worm gear.
Dave....collector, restorer, and operator of the finest doorstops
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Re: Why grease is useless
.
Last edited by Rufus T. Firefly on Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Conservatism: The intense fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is inferior is being treated as your equal.
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Re: Why grease is useless
As a side note....OLD automobile manual transmissions (before design and metallurgy caught up in early 60's) would eat gears regularly.
I needed a 3-speed OD for my 50 Ford. Found TWO in an old bus at a junkyard. Side covers GONE, every gear rusted.
Bought them both ($20 the pair...value at the time was $300 each...two years only). Disassembled and GLASS-BEADED all the gears.
The first one lasted 10 years as compared to 2-3, second one still in service.
Near as we could tell, even though gear oil/grease won't live in high-pressure zones, the light pitting held the oil between faces.
Weathering of cast parts outdoors may have helped....I know the strongest engine blocks are those that have set outside for 10-20 years before recovery.
I needed a 3-speed OD for my 50 Ford. Found TWO in an old bus at a junkyard. Side covers GONE, every gear rusted.
Bought them both ($20 the pair...value at the time was $300 each...two years only). Disassembled and GLASS-BEADED all the gears.
The first one lasted 10 years as compared to 2-3, second one still in service.
Near as we could tell, even though gear oil/grease won't live in high-pressure zones, the light pitting held the oil between faces.
Weathering of cast parts outdoors may have helped....I know the strongest engine blocks are those that have set outside for 10-20 years before recovery.
Dave....collector, restorer, and operator of the finest doorstops
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