Drifting along; RTR quality, Couplers, EMD cabs...

[De Bruin]

Yes, they decided to go off on their own incompatible crap when they could have saved time and resources just staying with Kadee couplers.

They could have also used a Protocraft and eliminated that stupid looking trip pin, which is a dead giveaway in many modeler's photos that I might otherwise mistake for 12" to the foot. That said, it's ALL a matter of preference. If we tossed everything that wasn't spot on, would we have anything left?....

Sorry Rich, with Martin on this, Atlas could have at least used the same plate pattern as Kadees (the virtual standard like it or not) to mount their coupler but no, they have a different hole template that only accommodates their awful design, which last I checked few IF ANY appreciate. Hence the conversion to Kadees, or as you point out Protocraft, or hell even retro Monarch’s over the stock Atlas kluge, let alone the fact that removing the stock Atlas coupler is excessively difficult and often results in its destruction even when done "correctly."
It's a stick in the eye, just like the “tennis shoe” truck frames, no one here appears to have a “preference” for those either. And no one's tossing anything here, there's just no justification for those couplers anymore than for the production practices on their factory floor.

[bob turner]

What's a tennis shoe truck frame?

K-Line had the right idea - Kadee's patent is long expired, so they just duplicated them.

[E7]

Sorry Rich, with Martin on this, Atlas could have at least used the same plate pattern as Kadees (the virtual standard like it or not) to mount their coupler but no, they have a different hole template that only accommodates their awful design, which last I checked few IF ANY appreciate. Hence the conversion to Kadees, or as you point out Protocraft, or hell even retro Monarch’s over the stock Atlas kluge, let alone the fact that removing the stock Atlas coupler is excessively difficult and often results in its destruction even when done "correctly."
It's a stick in the eye, just like the “tennis shoe” truck frames, no one here appears to have a “preference” for those either. And no one's tossing anything here, there's just no justification for those couplers anymore than for the production practices on their factory floor.

Pete, I'm not debating anything you say. What I am saying is maybe it is done intentionally, to discourage the use of another manufacturer's (as in competitor) product, whatever the name/brand might be.

Maybe it's time to invest a stamp and ask them why?

Rich

[De Bruin]

.....What I am saying is maybe it is done intentionally, to discourage the use of another manufacturer's (as in competitor) product, whatever the name/brand might be....

I would have a hard time understanding Atlas's motive for any of that, no chance Kadee's say, releasing a GP60 in five different road names, with optional wide and standard cab, etc. nor would I suspect Atlas looks at Kadee now as anything more then another aftermarket supplier.
Sorry rationalizations aside it's still a litany of REALLY bad choices on their part from a two rail perspective.

[sarge]

Rich:

I think my grouse about the couplers is in the camp concerning the bolt pattern. In HO, a standard pattern and height of coupler pad is pretty well understood as a good thing from a standards perspective. In this case it isn't even a matter of having some silly three-rail thing rammed down our throats as usual, but Atlas going back to the box they used in the Roco days rather than a universal pad and bolt-pattern. If Jim Weaver knew his trade, he would have taken the opportunity in the AtlasO redesign to fix that major nit from the '70s rather than resurrect it. Instead, he bulled ahead thinking in terms of toy-trains; brand loyalty, horizontally integrated product range, on-purpose incompatibility to further force brand loyalty, &c. Conversations with him on the subject of compatibility (or fidelity for that matter) could get really acrimonious very quickly.

Better to make the Atlas coupler if you want, but fix the mounting dimensions so the modeller can choose in a bolt-on fashion, like HO. Like Weaver Models did. The opposite perspective also weighs in. If you believed your coupler to be superior, making your box to the standard bolt pattern so consumers can bolt them up to other manufacturer's cars makes them a viable choice as a layout standard by the modeller. Theirs, because of the box, aren't, so selling couplers as an accessory is an opportunity missed because of the mistake of choosing enforced brand loyalty over compatibility.

Then there were the trucks. "Tennis Shoe" trucks were those earlier versions with the bolsters so long you could have gotten 6' gauge in there. They were designed for toy-train wheels, the main thrust of Jim's business model as toys he understood well. It was only after Jim's death that Tom H, to his credit, had them redesigned with a far narrower stance. We won't get into the truck mounting system incompatibilities, something Weaver Models again seemed to be able to do well whilst playing to the same cross-cultural market.

During that era, Jim's business model did more to advance robustness over fidelity, brand-loyalty over compatibility, and toy-train nostalgia over performance, a major player in the hobbling of O RTR on the level of Tyco whilst the rest of the scales actually developed lightyears beyond in their RTR product fidelity, compatibility, and performance, truly earning his place in OSK's "Hall of Fame".

Kinda drifted off the subject of Chinese manufacturing quality I fear. My apologies for the dreadful tome...

[E7]

Sarge, Pete, I don't even have the foggiest idea what the late Mr. Weaver's (sort of amusing he had that name and worked for Atlas) motivations might have been. I've long hoped the Sergent coupler would find it's way to "O", but I'm not holding my breath.

Have a great Holidays!

[sarge]

Rich, tell me why the Sergent coupler? I'm not up to speed on them.

We have some wonderful options in O, from what I still consider the best operator's coupler in the old 80X series Kadee, through the scale-head 74X series, and into the various full scale ones like Protocraft and Jim Harper's coupler which I assume Jay C. handles now.

[E7]

Sarge, This one goes back a bit. Sergent came out with an HO type E coupler that had a ball bearing inside that was magnetically operated. Looked good and operated pretty well. Instead of bringing a version out in O, they chose to do it in S (not the most logical choice ala market size). The p48er's liked it and (this is the story I saw on one of their BLOGs ) inquired how big an order it would take to do them in O. The owner wanted a huge number of pieces for an order, and it never got done. Fast forward, and I read somewhere that the owner had given permission for the coupler to be made in O by anyone interested in doing so.

That was a few years back. Not sure if the original owner is still running the show or not. The website is still up, and shows different couplers as in or out of stock.

Sergent website
http://www.sergentengineering.com/

You Tube demo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm78zrSObrM

Looking at the demo it appears O would bw easier to deal with than HO

These appear like they would be decent in O and they would get you away from that stupid (opinion) Kadee "whisker"

Not sure if the operation/company is still owned by the same person

So the "WHY" would be they have an accurate look and (based on HO operation) would likely have good/better operation in O.

Another You Tube video

Take note of what the Brit says about compatibility and the reason. This video is worth watching completely through as it's pretty entertaining!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrP38A1gk0

[sarge]

Thanks Rich. I'll give it a look.

As for that stupid whisker thing (which I loathe), a large diagonal cutter lives in my workbench out with the layout. It has but one purpose in life and it does it well. Grin!

[ScaleCraft]

It's really funny when you get into discussions with ex-spurts about Kadees......and they deny they ever looked different than now.

https://www.kadee.com/images/coupler-evolution-mod.jpg

I used to get H0 stuff in here with K series....and called Kadee.....they were excited, as they have old timers who use those and want more. Mailed them off.

No "air hose", rather spring wire hanging straight down from the moveable jaw...used one of those ramps with parallel bars between rails.


How about the magnetic X2F horn hook RA series?

[E7]

As for that stupid whisker thing (which I loathe), a large diagonal cutter lives in my workbench out with the layout. It has but one purpose in life and it does it well. Grin!

Sarge, We are of like mind ala the whisker!

I'll be curious to hear your opinion of the potential of the Sergent.

Rich

PS: Many the photo of someone's models that would have totally fooled me as REAL, have been sabotaged by the whisker!

[Chris Webster]

Norm already sells a O-scale coupler that will uncouple when a magnetic wand is held over it, just like the Sergent HO coupler:
1:48 scale working brass Symington-Gould E-Type coupler with magnetic operation

[E7]

It's really funny when you get into discussions with ex-spurts about Kadees......and they deny they ever looked different than now.

I do not have the audacity to call myself an ex-spurt on anything. Most here have forgotten more than I'll ever know, but I can read, and so far I'm not blind. I recall reading about some of the newer Kadees that "they" had made them closer to prototypical, and my first thought was, why not just make them look like the real thing?

[E7]

Norm already sells a O-scale coupler that will uncouple when a magnetic wand is held over it, just like the Sergent HO coupler:
1:48 scale working brass Symington-Gould E-Type coupler with magnetic operation

Chris, Protocraft is my choice for the moment.

Rich

[ScaleCraft]

It's really funny when you get into discussions with ex-spurts about Kadees......and they deny they ever looked different than now.

I do not have the audacity to call myself an ex-spurt on anything. Most here have forgotten more than I'll ever know, but I can read, and so far I'm not blind. I recall reading about some of the newer Kadees that "they" had made them closer to prototypical, and my first thought was, why not just make them look like the real thing?

Oh, I know about why not make them look like the real thing?
In three gauges I deal with or have dealt with, my normal comment is "Kadees....the most unprototypical coupler on the market".
Where else can you find a horizontally sliding jaw?

Stretch with horn hooks, hook and loop, choppers....but you get the idea.

The ex-spurts I have run into generally reside in the Half Zero camp. And subscribe to Mentally Retarded magazine.....errr.....MR.

And believe the NMRA (numbskull, mentally retarded, aXXholes) is looking out for them.

Just think, everyone thinks KD's are the accepted standard coupler by the NMRA!