Midwestern Model Works Redux

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Chris Webster
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby Chris Webster » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:48 pm

E7 wrote:Could you please explain what is inexpensive?

$600 a pop bethgons?
$600 for a MMW Bethgon seems quite reasonable when you compare it to the cost of other O-scale products on the market.

Consider the coming run of Atlas 40 ft beer reefers. Those reefers are not that hard to make; just pop the plastic body shell out of the injection molding machine, stamp the artwork on its sides, attach detail parts (grab irons, roofwalk, door hinges) to the shell, then attach the shell to the chassis and put the finished product into the foam and box. Atlas says the retail price on those reefers are $95/each. $600 for the MMW Bethgon seems reasonable to me since the MMW is a much higher quality product that requires higher skilled labor to make.

I'm not buying any $600 Bethgons, but I can appreciate why others are.

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ScaleCraft
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby ScaleCraft » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:27 pm

I've always had an issue with fully detailed undersides. I tell folks the only way folks see that is if you do something wrong...like a massive derailment. Then the shorting of brass piping on the back of wheels.

Many years ago (30?) I had just finished a string of 4 SC two bays....painted, lettered Northern Pacific. Took them to Garberson's, put them on a chunk of track on the display table in the foyer.

Everybody was falling all over themselves....apparently some brass crap had been released...two-bays...for $300 each.

I picked one up and showed them it wasn't...but they looked good and ran well.
Dave....collector, restorer, and operator of the finest doorstops

E7
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby E7 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:32 pm

Chris Webster wrote:
E7 wrote:Could you please explain what is inexpensive?

$600 a pop bethgons?
$600 for a MMW Bethgon seems quite reasonable when you compare it to the cost of other O-scale products on the market.

Consider the coming run of Atlas 40 ft beer reefers. Those reefers are not that hard to make; just pop the plastic body shell out of the injection molding machine, stamp the artwork on its sides, attach detail parts (grab irons, roofwalk, door hinges) to the shell, then attach the shell to the chassis and put the finished product into the foam and box. Atlas says the retail price on those reefers are $95/each. $600 for the MMW Bethgon seems reasonable to me since the MMW is a much higher quality product that requires higher skilled labor to make.

I'm not buying any $600 Bethgons, but I can appreciate why others are.


In my OPINION, they are overpriced, and Atlas cars have nothing to do with a discussion about high dollar brass. The good news is, they are not relevant to the era I am interested in, so I can totally ignore them. Same with the rest of MMW's stuff. Not to be flip, because my intent is not to be rude, but I don't really care what others are buying. Again, it's that word opinion, and I'm not changing mine.

E7
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby E7 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:43 pm

ScaleCraft wrote:I've always had an issue with fully detailed undersides. I tell folks the only way folks see that is if you do something wrong...like a massive derailment. Then the shorting of brass piping on the back of wheels.

Many years ago (30?) I had just finished a string of 4 SC two bays....painted, lettered Northern Pacific. Took them to Garberson's, put them on a chunk of track on the display table in the foyer.

Everybody was falling all over themselves....apparently some brass crap had been released...two-bays...for $300 each.

I picked one up and showed them it wasn't...but they looked good and ran well.


Dave, It's all personal preference and there's nothing rational about this hobby at all. What about hatches and doors that open and most times lead to nothing. Some people like French pastry (meaning fancy non functional stuff).

bob turner
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby bob turner » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:03 pm

Funny - I was thinking the same thing. Some folks like center rails, some folks like worshipping at the MMW altar, and some collect golf tees. Whatever floats your boat.

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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby bob turner » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:05 pm

P S - I hate opening hatches. They show up here, they get glued shut for maintenance operations.

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sarge
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby sarge » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:29 am

There is a difference between the costs to make this stuff and what the market will bear.

I think $600 for a freightcar is obscene, myself, and I don’t think its going to work, certainly not in the long run. A couple thoughts:

As each country who made brass brought their standard of living more into line with the consuming nations, the prices hit a ceiling such that a new supplying nation was cultivated, historically Japan, then Korea, then China. There either is no-one left in the wings to be next or the consuming nations aren’t interested in doing so. That means any brass project, Japanese, Korean, or Chinese, will be the purview of the wealthy.

Plastic is germane, for that reflects the same condition. Scott’s diesels are in the $700-800 range per unit now and, with the inflationary picture we are looking at now and the Chinese standard of living, that won’t relax. Atlas is bringing in very little and hasn’t done much in years now.

As long as there are no new supplying nations being cultivated by us, that will be the future. Even if there are, but the cultivator is China (read Kader Group) rather than us, that still will be the future. New O Scale, brass or plastic RTR, collector or operator, is going to be the plaything of the rich.

Given that is true, can domestic manufacture continue to be dismissed with the wave of a hand? A few more stars align and no. Right now, a healthy portion of cost is the shipping, which can be negated by building domestically. Quality can also go up, as pieces would no longer be built behind closed doors and anything more than cursory final inspection by the importer an additional cost.

The elephants in the room are these, and they make a small herd all asking the same question. Is there a market for new brass or plastic RTR? In O, you are looking at a lot of estate material out there, and more coming. There is a lot of shopworn OEM stuff from the Chinese Glut days still to be absorbed. At least from an operator’s standpoint, he has options that new product, imported or domestic, can’t hope to compete with.

Then there are builders, and make no mistake there are builders younger than us. Their build often is retrofitting new tech in old models, but is that really different from the retrofitting of new details and drives on old models in our generation? Small batch manufacturing methods are about to change radically too, and we are certainly “small batch”. 3d printing is just getting into its stride for large items such as full shells as mainstream; who will be soldering stuff together from brass in ten years time? Or injection moulding short-runs? Or shipping it all over hell?

There is huge change coming, domestic drives and 3d printed shells and details? Colour prints with the paint and lettering integral to the print? The controls tech updated like any other tech, but more easily changed out in your gear, because the hobby as a whole followed the rest of the standards world and defined just the interface standards instead of the entire protocols? On that last one, think defining only the input and output required of any controls system and the physical hardpoints to install rather than calling one system a standard as DCC is defined today (and rapidly ignoring that definition). How about every workshop or club or hobbyshop having a 3d printer; place your order on Tuesday night before bedtime and all of it but the motor is printed by Wednesday morning in stunning colour; your build is to assemble all the details to the shell, pull out a motor and the control boards of choice, and drop ‘em in. Want it ready to run? Don’t need to go to China or anywhere else for that level build, do we, not when the components ship over the ether rather than over the waves. None of that strikes me as implausible or even unlikely.

What does strike me unlikely are things remaining as they have been all our modelling lives being a requirement. The question no longer is who will inject our plastic or solder our brass for us, and how much will the fewer and fewer be willing to pay for it. That is on the cusp of vanishing like writing on parchment or casting in sand.

I hope I live to see it, too. It will be exciting to be part of.
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J. S. Bach
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby J. S. Bach » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:53 pm

E7 wrote:
J. S. Bach wrote:I do not think that the Water has ever said anything good
about anything! :mrgreen:


He's almost as GRUMPY as I am! :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen:

Chris Webster
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby Chris Webster » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:09 pm

sarge wrote:I think $600 for a freightcar is obscene, myself, and I don’t think its going to work,

Norm Buckhart currently charges $397 plus shipping for Protocraft's Greenville gons, which are unpainted. Decals are another $8.50.

How many painters do you know who will paint and letter a gon for $194.50 or less?

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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby J. S. Bach » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:14 pm

Chris Webster wrote:Norm Buckhart currently charges $397 plus shipping for Protocraft's Greenville gons, which are unpainted. Decals are another $8.50. How many painters do you know who will paint and letter a gon for $194.50 or less?

A friend has one that charges $30.00 a color and his work is up there with the best. I plan on having him do some MP-54s for me.

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Erik C Lindgren
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby Erik C Lindgren » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:47 pm

I'll say this it would take a lot more than 190 bucks to get me to set up and paint for someone else's model these days; when I was 15 years younger I did it for $100. The risks of exposure to the paint fumes not withstanding you need to think about all this. Emphysema and cancer sucks don't tell me there is no risk thats BS and you know it. So having the right set up (paint booth, respirator, gloves) for o scale sized models costs money and space. Either way you slice it to get a paint job worthy of a Korean factory paint you are going to need some investment. I paint in an open porch and manage well but will I spray others cars for 20 bucks? Heeell NO!

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De Bruin
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby De Bruin » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:04 pm

Erik makes some good points, no one should minimize the exposure risks with model painting. I start at $150, another $100 for each additional color, complicated mask, decal job, and I have the booth, mask rig, gloves. He's right, it ain't cheap and can be tedious in the extreme, throw in resistance soldier repair and you're well on the way to hell.
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sarge
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby sarge » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:07 am

Chris, Erik, Pete, all true.

As far as Protocraft, and MMW, sorry. No sale here. Its not like I’m doing this on a shoestring, and the point remains the mainstream isn’t paying that kind of money. The prices are topping out and that sort of product is unsustainable except as niche within a niche; why do you think MMW or Kohs struggle with these projects? It ain’t the complexity. It’s the finances. Even crowd-funding them is proving to be more and more problematic. I don’t believe for a moment there is dishonesty here, just diminishing chance of success. If it really was a scheme, these guys and those before them would be walking with the money, not penniless.

You can rightly justify the current pricing all you want, but it doesn’t mean there is an increasing or even sustaining pool of consumers to support that pricing.

Its not like we’ve not been here before in the brass world at least; this was the very reason why we cultivated three countries for models in my lifetime, Japan, then Korea, then China each as its predecessor achieved a standard of living such that labour costs drive prices out of the “affordability” bandwidth. This time, there isn’t a new place to go where a family can eat for a year on thrupence ha’penny, so that ride might well be over. Also, this time around, what recently became mainstream market plastic is topped or close to it.

As far as painting, there never has been money in it, not “factory painting” for an importer, not custom painting (which I’ve refused to do for decades; another story), and custom building never had a living wage to it. I’ll happily do my own and consider it part of my hobby enjoyment, just as I have all my O scale life of over half a century. I’ll shoot for friends and build for friends but you guys that likewise do it or have done it know there never has been riches in it. Part of the compensation is the satisfaction, like any craft, or we wouldn’t do it; it never was only about the money.

Currently, with no place to go, traditional methods are fast becoming unsustainable. New tech and new methods are poised in the wings, though, and that’s cause for optimism.
No-one ever forgets where they buried the hatchet.

bob turner
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby bob turner » Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:52 am

I seem to remember some 1850 thesis that predicted this search for cheap labor.

Yeah, well put. However, the hobby may continue to exist because of the now accessible used market.

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sarge
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Re: Midwestern Model Works Redux

Postby sarge » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:13 pm

bob turner wrote:
Yeah, well put. However, the hobby may continue to exist because of the now accessible used market.


Absolutely true, the used market is amazingly rich and affordable. Just back from Strasburg, in fact; shifted a lot of stuff that was excess and the Jeep is loaded with winter projects that fit my plans. I came back with less cash, but only down about half the cost of one of those MMW Bethgons.

A great day and a rich full winter of projects to build looks to be my lot for very little real outlay. Nice to see friends, too.
No-one ever forgets where they buried the hatchet.


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