MMW SD45

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sarge
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby sarge » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:42 am

rex desilets wrote:I cannot fathom the lust for any modern diesel model, all lumps and bumps and boxes, produced in brass. There are, I suppose, plastic versions of same, that can be bought and converted to 2-rail for less than the cost of a good used automobile.
Unless, of course, the putative buyer intends to mount it under glass with spotlights illuminating it.
:lol:


Disclaimer; The following is intended for a good smile, not offence.

The younger crowd has to see this and roll their eyes (because they stereotypically don't go to "humourous" as a default). You do realise the prototype in question was first built a full half century ago or more? "Modern"? To most modellers today (most are younger than us) they are as historic as some teakettle built before the Great War was to us in the '60s. A Dreyfus Hudson or a PRR T1 was only half that age when we were young model builders. Grin!

As far as your statement, if one is remotely neurotic about ones rivets, most of the plastic 3-rail versions aren't worth the converting. Even if you could get good handrail stanchion sets to replace those awful foldups (kept as an homage to Lionel postwar), you still are stuck with that dreadful twin motor drive (kept as an homage to Lionel postwar), overwide trucks with frames cut away to clear, &c. O scale seems satisfied, nay grateful, to be stuck with RTR diesel models the equivalent in fidelity of Tyco in HO.

Which brings us back to fifty-year-old standards accepted as "modern" for the current day.

GRIN!
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rex desilets
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby rex desilets » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:59 am

You are mostly correct, Sarge, especially about the historicity of the loco. . I have a hard time appreciating a jumbled assortment of box shapes for, what?, more than a grand because it has good stanchions and proper rivets. These can be upgraded, of course. According to Turner's oft-repeated testimony, the infamous China drives are pretty nearly immortal. Not important, I suppose, if you want to run your treasure back and forth on a test track or display it under lights.
Anyway, just getting out my pre-Christmas grumps.
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sarge
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby sarge » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:54 am

rex desilets wrote:You are mostly correct, Sarge, especially about the historicity of the loco. . I have a hard time appreciating a jumbled assortment of box shapes for, what?, more than a grand because it has good stanchions and proper rivets. These can be upgraded, of course. According to Turner's oft-repeated testimony, the infamous China drives are pretty nearly immortal. Not important, I suppose, if you want to run your treasure back and forth on a test track or display it under lights.
Anyway, just getting out my pre-Christmas grumps.


Funny, good stanchions, proper rivets, some measure of dimensional accuracy such as truck height too much to ask, but we get swinging pilots to fix, those stupid shortened grabs if they even do give you fixed pilots, this before you have to completely redo the pickups and wheels, and bless me Turner says the damn drives are immortal which still doesn't mean they are anything but an order of magnitude too fast and the slot-car starting performance is to die for, all for something north of $500. I'm so grateful to Lionel, MTH, Jim Weaver (RIP), and the Chinese for all this value. Oh, and I forgot RailSounds (TM) and DCS.

I agree a three or four grand SD45 is in the purview of the wealthy collector, but why we are supposed to be ever grateful for this manna from China that, from a fidelity, performance, and compatibility standpoint would have the average modeller in any other scale up in arms is beyond me. The problem is, for every hermaphrodite model that sort-of-looks like (for example) a GP30 that floods the marketplace, the chances of seeing an acceptable model of a GP30 at something like a payable price for the mainstream modeller goes to just about naught. And people wonder why O scale appears to be in trouble.

I shall remain forever unconvinced this is even remotely a good and healthy thing.
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby bob turner » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:18 pm

Well, since my name appears twice above,I shall weigh in.

I think what Erik is doing, what Kiohs and Key have done, what Henry Bultmann did, are all laudable. A contribution to art.

The Lionel plastic stuff used to be toys for kids, and even though greatly improved, still has that heritage. A different kind of art, but still It has its place.

The sycophants who praise models that may never reach the market - not sure what to make of them, but I think I should give them some of the leeway I give to the truly religious. They have faith, and maintain that faith without a shred of specific evidence. At least Erik has a pilot model.

No, I do not buy high end models. Closest I ever came was a PSC Cab Forward, and I was not satisfied with it. I would much rather build my own. But I hope the hobby can support such high end perfection in the future. The world is better off with art, even if it is done on a production line, and even if it is out of the reach of the middle class pocketbook.

China drives have their place. Criswell and Bultmann drives do, too. There is plenty of room for both.

All opinion.

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sarge
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby sarge » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:12 pm

bob turner wrote:China drives have their place. Criswell and Bultmann drives do, too. There is plenty of room for both.


I agree with all of it except for this last bit. There isn't "plenty of room", for no sooner does Lionel or MTH crank out some shitbox masquarading as (for example) a C-420 with China Drives, fold-ups, swinging pilots, then a half-decent C-420 is off any other maker's or importer's playlist. Apparently the marketplace isn't big enough for both after all, sadly.

A hermaphrodite model will satisfy those who don't really care beyond colourful, flashing lights, and sound, but not those who care about fidelity, performance, and compatibility. A decent RTR plastic model costs little more, and can satisfy a much larger percentage of consumers by including the fidelity, performance, and compatibility crowd. The folks who don't care still won't, so they're happy too.

Current HO and N support that thesis. The Atlas SW does, too. Scott's plastic costs little more than Lionel, Atlas, or MTH and the drives are lightyears better. Of all of them, how does Atlas justify that cavalier disregard for fidelity in O, yet trade on higher standards in HO and N?

I'll leave it at that.
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:56 pm

sarge wrote:Of all of them, how does Atlas justify that cavalier disregard for fidelity in O, yet trade on higher standards in HO and N?


By pandering to their targeted marketplace's level of acceptance.... It just so happens that's not us.
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby bob turner » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:47 pm

What Martin said. And I still say plenty of room for high end drives. All you need to do is commission Jay, or Erik, or even just purchase a Sunset Diesel and sell the leftover parts. We cannot fault these importers for going in the most profitable direction - this is Capitalism and the free market at its finest.

Still opinion.

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Re: MMW SD45

Postby sarge » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:56 pm

bob turner wrote: And I still say plenty of room for high end drives.


Lawyering up, are we? That's not what you said. You said:

bob turner wrote:
China drives have their place. Criswell and Bultmann drives do, too. There is plenty of room for both.


Evidence suggests there isn't room for both in the marketplace. If that is true, then its China drives I hold have no value, not at the expense of good drives.

But you knew that, now didn't you. :wink: :lol:

More importantly, the drives are only one component of a decent model, performance. Fidelity is lacking on these things, as is compatibility. There is no excuse for O mainstream RTR not to be on the same par as HO mainstream RTR. That is the point being expressed here, not some clever obfuscation for sport. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by sarge on Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rex desilets
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby rex desilets » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:16 pm

sarge wrote:<snip>

bob turner wrote:
China drives have their place. Criswell and Bultmann drives do, too. There is plenty of room for both.


Evidence suggests there isn't room for both in the marketplace. If that is true, then its China drives I hold have no value, not at the expense of good drives.

But you knew that, now didn't you. :wink: :lol:
You should then limit yourself to the offerings from Sunset 3rd Rail. Maybe Atlas, except that I think Atlas O is a lost cause.

More importantly, the drives are only one component of a decent model, performance. Fidelity is lacking on these things, as is compatibility. There is no excuse for O mainstream RTR not to be on the same par as HO mainstream RTR. That is the point being expressed here, not some clever obfuscation for sport. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think you overlook the vast difference between the market for HO vice that of O scale. O scale/gauge/whatever exists today because of the "toy train' market. Since all true O scalers are builders at heart, and the bulk of offerings are from the Lionel/MTH shops, we have to adapt, improvise, and overcome...There are, in 3-rail, a fairly ambitious group who do exactly that.
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby E7 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:35 pm

sarge wrote:I agree a three or four grand SD45 is in the purview of the wealthy collector, but why we are supposed to be ever grateful for this manna from China that, from a fidelity, performance, and compatibility standpoint would have the average modeller in any other scale up in arms is beyond me. The problem is, for every hermaphrodite model that sort-of-looks like (for example) a GP30 that floods the marketplace, the chances of seeing an acceptable model of a GP30 at something like a payable price for the mainstream modeller goes to just about naught. And people wonder why O scale appears to be in trouble.

I shall remain forever unconvinced this is even remotely a good and healthy thing.


NAILED IT, SMACK DAB DEAD ON!
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby E7 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:46 pm

bob turner wrote:China drives have their place. Criswell and Bultmann drives do, too. There is plenty of room for both. All opinion.


Right on again! The Criswells and Bultmanns go in models and the PLACE for the C-Drives is the trash.
"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo Possum

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sarge
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby sarge » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:11 am

rex desilets wrote:I think you overlook the vast difference between the market for HO vice that of O scale. O scale/gauge/whatever exists today because of the "toy train' market. Since all true O scalers are builders at heart, and the bulk of offerings are from the Lionel/MTH shops, we have to adapt, improvise, and overcome...There are, in 3-rail, a fairly ambitious group who do exactly that.


Bollocks, pure and simple.

O Scale was doing just fine in the late 80s long before the toy train people decided they invented it.

As a matter of historical fact, 0-scale models were quietly being built on both sides of the puddle before J. L. Cohen did window displays and scale models were already commercialised in America by the likes of Egolf in the 1920s when Lionel was pounding tin (albeit gorgeous tin) for children.

Indeed, left to our own devices, we would have been just fine, no thanks very much. Atlas would have probably continued on its vein of the SW if it wasn't for that toy-buyer from K-mart who turned the line into what it became. Weaver Models were getting a good range going, but had to follow along so they thought. Sadly, that only worked for the short term, as it turned out. Intermountain, Red Caboose, San Juan injection moulded product were just getting legs when they were kicked out from underneath by a glut of (frankly) poorly engineered mass-production. Brass was sustainable then, because operators painted and ran it, adding to the buying power of the collectors. We had good paint, ranges of decals, details, all turned on its arse because the scale was force-fed more RTR than it could absorb in an attempt to super-size HO, and what it was force-fed was and remains junk-food compared to the mainstream scales.

O scale as a modellers' venue is much older than the boomer nostalgia for O gauge toys, does not owe its existence to the toy train world, and certainly owes no thanks in the long term to that world (a world that drowned us too in its attempt to justify itself beyond merely nostalgia for boomers).

Not a grump, merely a dispassionate summation of history.
Last edited by sarge on Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: MMW SD45

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:24 am

sarge wrote:
rex desilets wrote:I think you overlook the vast difference between the market for HO vice that of O scale. O scale/gauge/whatever exists today because of the "toy train' market. Since all true O scalers are builders at heart, and the bulk of offerings are from the Lionel/MTH shops, we have to adapt, improvise, and overcome...There are, in 3-rail, a fairly ambitious group who do exactly that.


Bollocks, pure and simple.

O Scale was doing just fine in the late 80s long before the toy train people decided they invented it.



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Re: MMW SD45

Postby rogruth » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:29 pm

This is not exactly tongue in cheek but in my opinion this forum, in all of its various sections, needs more of the type of conversations that was
held just above. Useful, informative and with a bit of humor. More please.

The above are not the only examples but are indicative of what is needed to keep a forum interesting.
roger

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Re: MMW SD45

Postby E7 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:28 am

I was hoping Chris W. might have weighed in somewhere along the way, as he was the one who revived this topic, and he is always well spoken.

Rich
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