No Club Car

[up148]

Not trying to be a cheerleader, but I guess I doing just that...my apologies. I think we need to let this CCL topic cool off. We are a very diversified group with many different modeling interests. Some here keep O scale history by their modeling, some contribute modern versions of the same, others have layouts and bring that to the table. But, the bottom line is we all enjoy 1/48 model trains, whatever the flavor. I've learned a lot from posts on this forum and hope to learn more in the future.

We must learn how to live in the same 1/48 house if we expect this forum to grow.

Being a bunch of crusty old cronies I think "how we feel" on any particular day can influence the tone of our post (it does me), so lets cut each other a little slack.

[bob turner]

I suppose it should cool off - we are better off talking about trees or doorstops.

But I feel as though I have been mildly, but personally, attacked by two different participants, so I am going to add a few comments in my defense.

First, I think the Club Car was a good idea - it kept truly ugly stuff sequestered, along with most of the personal attacks. I found it full of hatred, and personal attacks, and avoided it like the plague. I felt badly leaving Neil there with no other support, but he, too, could have abandoned it, and chose not to.

Second, politics really should not be off limits, nor should religion. The problem is, you get folks who are quite sure of their facts, and they are quite willing to attack anyone who has a different idea. Right now, our politics has reached an inflection point, and the only cure I am aware of is education - self, or otherwise. As to religion, we should allow any and all belief systems except those dedicated to making everyone conform under penalty of physical harm or death. As far as I am concerned we can indeed vote in an official religion (I hope it never happens, but it might). We just voted in a rather dramatic change in the American continuum, as is our right.

I do not believe I have ever personally attacked anyone on any internet forum. I believe personal attacks should be allowed, and the attackers should suffer a certain loss of reputation. I do believe I have the right to identify as a liberal, politically and socially. I also believe that if I sat down over a beer with those of the opposite persuasion I could have a pleasant conversation - indeed I do that weekly, because aviation is pretty much a rich man's sport, and my buddies lean to the right.

Now, as to not commenting on the "trees" thread, I note that there were plenty of tree aficionados there, and I refrained so as to not have my name appearing on too many of the top five threads. They are nice trees, and Sarge does good work. If nobody other than me likes the older stuff, then let's have more "trees" threads, or maybe a few more plastic model threads. But let's leave the forum policing to somebody else, and get back to either trains or scenery, or both.

I am bob turner, and that's my opinion.

[sarge]

Bob, I'm not sure how sensitive you really are but if being mentioned in other than the most glowing of terms was considered "personal attacks" after you got gently called out for dismissiveness and just a little hypocrisy (and no, you're not innocent of your own version of jabs at others) I have to wonder.

Thanks you guys. It is gratifying to know that a small subset of us is more interested in actual O Scale. Right now there is a lot of activity applauding our new restrictions, but zero on trains.

After all, in many ways you were the catalyst for all this, complaining about being three or four in a row on the summary list, no-one posting, even (jokingly, perhaps?) threatening your friends with more repeat images of doorstop Pacifics if they didn't take up the slack.

Which is real? Your calls for more participation or MTJ being your own private corner of the hanger? I can only infer the latter at this point and no, those of us who aren't in synch with your view aren't really welcome in that corner.

Clarity is what is needed now. The four or five of you, if you see this as your private corner, will see these events as damaging and as a threat. If the calls by you for participation (not to mention the calls for the owner to spend a helluva lot of money for software and capacity) are real, on the other hand, then this is progress.

I'm serious about the fact that this is up to you guys, not me as the prodigal son with the big mouth. You are already here so the decision and the need to communicate it clearly are yours. If the choice is to keep it as your private chatroom amongst the four of five of you, then change and investment is not only unnecessary but unwelcome. If the choice is to try and bring in new participation as you have so often called for, and even reclaim participation lost as people who have been made either uncomfortable or unwelcome have thrown up their hands and walked away, then it comes at a price. The price is civility and safety, just as much as it is user-friendliness and capacity.

Me? I'm not interested in my place in some playground hierarchy. I'm only here right now because my big mouth made a couple promises to some people to try. That promise has been kept at this juncture.

After sleeping on all this, I'm henceforth staying away for the moment until you guys who are here figure out what you want to do with this in the future. No effort at doing so means the status quo is what the Five desire and that's just as fine with the rest of us as either a clear yes or no. Before Lee spends a dime though, you owe it to him to tell him what you support, things as they are (including his flipping the switch back on with Club-car), or a re-imagined MTJ.

Those of us willing to participate can make our decisions for ourselves based on what we see.

[gregj410]

Wow Bob,

You were mildly attacked? I’ve never been mildly attacked by a swarm of bees or mildly attacked by a dog, whatever that means, but okay. If you think that was an attack you might want to reconsider whether you think talking about religion or politics should be permitted on a train forum, especially the way you take your little pot shots. You’re going to need a much thicker skin!

[E7]

Nowhere is it written that anyone has to read, respond to, or whatever to ANY posts on this forum, whatever and wherever the topic. Don't like it, don't go there/read/respond to it! Feel free to hurl any and all insults/whatever my way. I give bonus points for originality.

Rich

PS: It amuses me that some of you think the Club Car is gone. It will live on within other topic names, and therein lies the problem. My question is to they who were so offended by it: What they H*ll were you doing there? It's the old "Can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!"

[sarge]

It's easy Rich. I and many others were happy to disassociate ourselves from MTJ as long as that poison was what MTJ was being judged by. I'll be happy to leave again if this devolves to it again.

No-one is moderating us, so we can choose. We can prove a hobby forum can actually work unmoderated or we can add to the body of evidence that says the internet is nothing but a dystopia, a failed anarchist experiment.

I've no need to put up with incivility; I stand against it even if I stand by myself. I wouldn't be trying this one last time if I believed otherwise.

BTW, I never was "offended". I was disgusted. There is a big difference.

[E7]

Brian,

Who died and left you in charge. Don't like it, don't go there! I agree that there were some topics that left a bit to be desired, but nowhere was ANYONE required to read them. I could be wrong, but I expect to see a bunch of drivel on regular topics, because there is no place else to put it.....

Rich

[bob turner]

If one were to avoid, say, a forum because it had a "Rants and Raves" section, then by extension one would probably want to avoid the internet entirely, because far more odious things are easy to get to on the internet. Or avoid the library because it has Lolita on the shelf?

Just avoid stuff that disgusts you. Opinion.

[sarge]

You both are missing the point.

You can have folks feel good about posting modelling content as we've been trying to do for the last ten days or so, or it can be the same poison atmosphere and crappy reputation it's been for the last several years with no-one outside you four or five thinking this is fun or worthwhile. At least you'll now know why no-one is posting, because none of you feel any improvement or effort is warranted.

If you guys want to continue as before, by all means go ahead and do so, but do it without the rest of us in the hobby and the forum can continue to be the miserable laughing stock it's been and die. Indeed, if the PM's and emails from the Famous Five are any indication, I'm about as welcome as a whore in church for trying, and I might be the only person on the bloody planet who thought MTJ as a model train forum was worth a try. I can be so thick.

The only person I'm in charge of is me. Nope, I don't need to read it and I dam sure don't have to post to it if it is to be like any other social media platform on the internet. Indeed, I have serious doubts any place on the internet can be civilised voluntarily.

Last I'm saying on the subject and on this thread. The future success or failure of this forum is up to you.

[bob turner]

Are you kidding? Not one of us five have been posting disgusting stuff, nor have we attacked anybody. We are trying to keep this segment for trains, and we are quite happy with your latest postings relating to trains and scenery.

[sarge]

Not one of us five have been posting disgusting stuff, nor have we attacked anybody.

No further comment.

[E7]

We now have "Club CarJr."

Rich

[up148]

We need to put a mental lock on this thread.

[E7]

The real problem is, the VAST MAJORITY of stuff posted there was NOT offensive. You can kill it by name, but sooner or later stuff will appear other places.

Rich