Help with Choosing A Catenary System

[bob turner]

Use caution when replacing Chinese motors - I did that to a Williams "J" that ran like the wind. Turned it into a smooth slowpoke.
As I recall, the big problem with Sunset six axle electrics was the four axle power. I am still planning a Delrin chain on my Y-1 pair.

[2railjon]

The fix for my GG1 was using softer springs in all the trucks to distribute the traction evenly. The stock springs had no flex at all. This also included the pilot trucks.

[robert.]

If your going to do all that work in running catenary wire. Why not power it? Imagine pouring a glass of cold lager. Then lifting that glass to cheer with somebody. Only to place it back on the table without a taste. Electrify it and run it.

[2railjon]

Robert, to answer your question, my four loops all have rotary switches to go from DCC, DCS, and DC depending on what manufacturers locomotive I have on what loop. I’ll be darned if I’m going to add extra rotary switches to run catanary power!
I’d rather drink the lager and say it looks real enough to me!

[rogruth]

Robert, to answer your question, my four loops all have rotary switches to go from DCC, DCS, and DC depending on what manufacturers locomotive I have on what loop. I’ll be darned if I’m going to add extra rotary switches to run catanary power!
I’d rather drink the lager and say it looks real enough to me!

Jon,
I rather like and agree with your logic here.

[De Bruin]

I appreciate both sentiments.
In the early nineties I had 12' by 18' double oval that I strung catenary on, and just getting the pantograph to track without de-wiring was an ordeal, much less powering it up. In retrospect then and after reading Noel Holly's treatise on building catenary in "Main Line Modeler" I realized my mistake was my construction/materials, which were adequate for trolley poles (I had previously modeled CNS&M) , but wholly unacceptable for holding the upward thrust of pantographs. Likewise my gauge car for the pantographs contact shoe, relative to the contact wire should have been adjustable to encompass different carbody lengths/main bolster/roof pantograph combinations ie. the relative differences between a GG1, P5 or MP54.
My GG1's pantographs were getting ripped off on a alarmingly regular basis, then the whole exercise became a moot point when I had to dismantle the layout.

If you have a good solid cross-arm, use stout steel rod (vs phosphor bronze) and a good gauge it should work well, also unless you're a purist go with the GE as opposed to the Westinghouse design for the compound catenary, as the GE typically did not use the sharply angled messenger pull-off on curves but rather maintains the 90 degree vertical span section through the curve, with the wire direction angling at the hangers and pull-offs. Alternately you can hang it with the wire high enough, or restrict your pantograph reach such that you never have to actually contact the wire but appear close enough for photos. Though having built a working layout with energized overhead, I can say it's really cool, and something I'm still crazy enough to want to do with catenary.

[2railjon]

Pete, thanks for your input!! Seeing as how I plan to avoid the hassle of electrifying the wire your idea of having the pantograph almost touching sounds appealing! How did You section together the ends of the steel rod together? Weld them?
For that matter how would one join bronze rod? Brazing? (I sucked in metal shop class back in grade school).

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Seeing as how I plan to avoid the hassle of electrifying the wire your idea of having the pantograph almost touching sounds appealing!

Actually, I sort of find some appeal in the almost touching arrangement, but maybe you still electrify the overhead with 110 or an electric fence charger just to the fun of having an obstacle course on the layout to navigate whenever you need to reach through it all to fix that derailment,

[De Bruin]

......How did You section together the ends of the steel rod together? Weld them? :

I recognize two approaches generally speaking for the fabrication of compound messenger-contact overhead (there are likely many more)
1. Sectionally, as per your catalogue examples. Commercially produced model European prototype catenary commonly uses a hook/eyelet to connect the messenger, and either an interlocking clip or fastener to attach or overlap the contact wires at the cross spans for unimpeded “sliding.” However for fabricating your own sections or perhaps using the examples you posted soldering is likely the easiest and recommended method for both fabricating and attaching sections.
2. Fabricating in place. This is how the Cherry Valley guys (per their periodic posts on OGR) do it for their beautiful PRR prototype compound catenary; the method allows you to use a continuous contact wire over a far greater distance, typically between the crossovers/overlaps that pull off to allow adjusting the tension at the pole/tower. Remember unlike trolley polls, pantographs do not require one continuous point of contact, so like the prototype, sections can overlap but do not necessarily have to connect. My experience is this approach is more sensitive to temperature changes, the inevitable pull-off repairs, adjustments, modifications etc. alignment-wise than the sectional approach. Also building in place is very tedious in terms of the continuous cause and effect to the alignment from incremental construction and the above maintenance examples. If you’re interested in this prototype style and method, again check out their posts on OGR to see examples of their fascinatingly tedious technique.

For that matter how would one join bronze rod? Brazing?

To be clear, the phosphor bronze usually employed for modeling traction overhead is thin gauge wire typically purchased in 100 ft spools, that can take a good amount of bending and soldiering before going too brittle, pole trolley style overhead can be fabricated entirely from phosphor bronze but per my earlier comment is typically inadequate in rigidity for catenary, though I recall Bob Hegge employed it successfully on his splendid Crooked Mountain Lines. Given the cost of fine gauge steel rod, I will continue to employ phosphor bronze for the pull-offs, back spans etc but use steel rod for the compound messenger-contact structures and the primary lower cross spans.
At least that’s the plan( we’ll see….. )

One more thing to consider; not all model pantographs are created equal, they vary in spring strengths, fully extended height, how limber they are in extending and tracking etc. I'm convinced that veteran overhead catenary modelers have got the "tuning" technique down for both their pantographs and overhead to a fine art by necessity.

[2railjon]

LOL, Rufus! I’ve got an electrified dog deterrent wire that attaches to a fence somewhere around here!

Pete,
“ Commercially produced model European prototype catenary commonly uses a hook/eyelet to connect the messenger, and either an interlocking clip or fastener to attach or overlap the contact wires at the cross spans for unimpeded “sliding.”
If that Type 2-0 that I posted on page 1 comes like that than that’s sounds like a winner!! Thank you again!!! Would you have any detailed photos of what attaches the wire to the post arm?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

LOL, Rufus! I’ve got an electrified dog deterrent wire that attaches to a fence somewhere around here!

Now we're in business!

[Carey Williams]

Hello all .... I always admire the over head wire displays at the various train shows ( all traction) ..but fun to see in operation. 1935 Druck ..who had been making 1/2" scale trolleys... later in the year added 1/4" to the line up.... here is an ad for their over head wire found in Model Craftsman ...has anyone ever seen , touched, owned a Druck trolley, interurban etc..?
Cheers Carey

Druck ad MC 1935 Sept.jpg (1006.16 KiB) Viewed 6615 times

[De Bruin]

Would you have any detailed photos of what attaches the wire to the post arm?

Sorry Jon I do not but if you search Sommerfeldt Catenary you'll see some examples of varying sections as well as a wide variety of cross spans/tower and single arm supports. All very modern looking, and mucho pricey.
Also note for these I had the eye and fastener backwards, the Sommerfeldt (basically same design in O, HO and N) has the hook eyelet on the bottom contact wire, and a free wire inserting or clipping into the cross arm at the top, Marklin's design is very similar but hasn't made O scale stuff like this in 70 or 80 plus years. Good luck with this, an admirable addition to your layout if you can swing it.

[2railjon]

Pete, good info, thanks! I see where templates are used to position wire and poles in curves.


And soldering is done above where pantograph won’t snag it.



One thing I’ve never liked about O Gauge catenary Systems is that the overhead power wire was stamped metal and curved around the curved track not looking prototypical at all. I believe power wires come off the poles at angles. Would you agree?

[De Bruin]

Yes, angling the contact wire around curves while keeping it within the center margin of the pantograph shoe is the "tall pole in the tent" in constructing this, most definitely need a gauge for the poles, and again ideally a "wire check gauge" with variable length truck bolsters and pantograph. I recommend seeing if you can get your hands on that "Traction Guidebook for Model Railroaders" Mike Schaefer, Kalmbach 1974. It has some good diagrams for the pull-offs needed to handle curvature, they're plenty around for under $10.