George Kohs posting

[Roy]

I'm not into super-long steamers, but it might be fun to take a couple of Union Pacific types, and build a 4-12-12-4.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Man. Deadsville again.

Why would that be a surprise; a Kohs whine about a Kohs whining session over on OGR......about a model that won't be any time in the near future that only a very few can actually afford....if they live long enough to ever see it.

Let's just build some models and be done with wasting time on such stuff.

[Robert]

Man. Deadsville again.

Why would that be a surprise; a Kohs whine about a Kohs whining session over on OGR......about a model that won't be any time in the near future that only a very few can actually afford....if they live long enough to ever see it.

Let's just build some models and be done with wasting time on such stuff.

Excellent advice.

[up148]

Granted, it's irrelevant to most of us (including me) whether this engine is delivered or not, but the topic was brought up on OGR partly because of George's underhanded practices with customers deposits. Granted, I think you're a fool to deal with him and his draconian deposit schedule, but nevertheless, some have and are getting screwed. I had one dealing with the man and that was enough and I can't believe someone hasn't put him in the hospital or worse.

IMHO, it's not a matter of will depositors be left holding the bag on some project, but when.

[2railjon]

In Black & White: non-refundable on pre-order. I have no dog in this fight. But people knew the stipulations.


“Before you fine folks start to bash someone, maybe you should look into things a bit.

Copied from the Big Boy order form on the Kohs website:

Union Pacific 4884 class 'Big Boy' Order Form Before ordering please confirm availability with us directly. The price for all versions is $6,000USD (plus shipping), a $3,000USD nonrefundable deposit is required at the time of ordering to secure your reservation, this now includes a $1,500USD incremental payment previously specified at the outset of this project. The balance including shipping will be due prior to delivery.

This is copied from the project page and mentions the beginning of the reservation process:

10/28/14 - Good news........the production schedule for the remainder of this year and 2015 has been set........long story short, the reservation process for the Big Boy can now begin!

So Mr. Kohs has not had anyone's deposit for 7 years.

So sadly Mr. diSanti's friend has no case, and if he was really worried about sending his son to college he shouldn't have been blowing money on brass models.

Simon”

[Rufus T. Firefly]

That actually does not state when the deposits were being first taken, only a production date.......

How many years have those greatest diesel ever made been going on now?

a $3,000USD nonrefundable deposit is required

[bob turner]

There is a guy over there who is either a lawyer or has done this before. He speaks of "reasonable" times for delivery, and availability of non-refundable deposits.

You simply cannot take non-refundable deposits and keep them if your delivery is not within a "reasonable" time. What "reasonable" means is a question of fact, for the jury.

[robert.]

All deposits are refundable. Some situations may only give you a partial refund. That amount is decided by a judge or arbitrator. In 2 cases against me. I used an arbitrator approved by the courts. It's free and did not tie the courts with a BS. case. In both cases i was angry with the customer. First case was for a bedroom set and changing the color of the wood. an arbitrator ruled i was allowed to keep a partial amount to pay labor and materials. I got about $17 an hour for 80 hours. $200 in supplies. The rest i had to refund. I was told by the arbitrator. " had i not changed the color. I would have received nothing. No product was delivered and no money was lost" Only thing that saved me was a signed sample of stained wood. The customer had signed a piece of wood saying " this is the color i want".
Second was for a moving job. On the night before my client called. He told 'i don't need you guys. send the deposit back to my office". "no" i told him. You reserved a truck and 4 guys" " i need to pay them.". Long story short. An arbitrator told me." Only thing i get is money for the rental truck" He claimed " Penske can show proof of lose from lack of rental. I had no proof of lose. I could not show that my moving service was in high demand and booked everyday. Also the arbitrator claimed " I did not pay the guys to do a moving job." I cancelled them for the day. Without the need for extra employees i had no extra financial burden.
In both cases after i removed the emotion i felt they were fair. Bottom line would be. If kohs does not produce a product in a reasonable time. He'll have to refund people. (that's my bar stool lawyer's opinion).

[Roy]

Of course, if the guy no longer has the money, you may get a judgement, but no actual cash.

[bob turner]

That is called restitution. If you give George money, and instruct him to do something, and he does do something, you get your deposit back less a reasonable value for his work, if he is prepared to deliver and you decide not to buy. But a non-refundable deposit becomes really non- refundable if he can deliver the Big Boy in that reasonable time.

But if George says "give me three grand non-refundabe, and I will sell you a Big Boy for eight grand total" the "reasonable time" becomes an un-stated condition of the contract. If he doesn't deliver, you can sue for your entire deposit. He doesn't get compensated for his efforts out of your deposit - your agreement was a complete Big Boy.

He can put a time on it - if he says "within 20 years" you probably won't get your deposit back until 20 years and a day.

The problem with contract law is that you pay your own attorney - way more than 3 grand. Misrepresentation is a tort, and may yield enough bucks to pay the attorney. I am with Butch - no model train is worth gambling the kid's college fund.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I am with Butch - no model train is worth gambling the kid's college fund.

Better at another decimal place or 2 if you're thinking college fund,

[up148]

Actually, George has added a new post on his website in the past 2 days, addressing this topic and stating he is giving an additional time period for the 2nd payment to be made, before the initial deposit is forfeited. I'm not sure of all the legal aspects or if there are legal avenues available to a depositor, but George has always stated the deposits were non-refundable.

My only experience with KOH's was on the Challenger and it was the length of time between my initial deposit, 2nd installment and delivery.....6-7 years IIRC, that really got to me and this is when I decided I would never do that again. Depositors basically paid the cost to produce this model, years before it was delivered......utter BS. I don't need any model that much. The importer, who is making the profit, is supposed to fund the project, as he is the only one making any money.

3rd Rail and KEY deposits are small, just like OMI's used to be. George is the one who brought this huge deposit business model to the market. Also, I've never seen or heard a man make excuses for delays as eloquently as he does. He really missed his calling..........he should have been a politician and would have received much better rewards.

[cole7015]

Ponzi as Ponzi do. All you have to remember for the BB is the launch date for the project 4/2002.
he and Bernie Madoff need to share a cell. Crooks

His last posting is just fluff as they say in the porno industry. He has read the comments on all the chats
groups and he is running interference. He is at rock bottom.

Bill

[Chris Webster]

, a $3,000USD nonrefundable deposit is required at the time of ordering to secure your reservation, this now includes a $1,500USD incremental payment previously specified at the outset of this project. The balance including shipping will be due prior to delivery.

Speaking of deposits, here's what one needs to put down to reserve a Tesla roadster:

Founders Series Roadster reservations require an initial $5,000 credit card payment, plus a $245,000 wire transfer payment due in 10 days. Reservations are not final until the wire transfer payment is received.

[robert.]

"Speaking of deposits, here's what one needs to put down to reserve a Tesla roadster:"
I wonder if they can sell it to the US. markets? No way they let a car in that tops off @ 250 mph. I think 199 is a US. limit.