NATO

[HONDO74]

...the AQMD is now laboring at gnats, having reached the tail of the cost-benefit curve.

The AQMD did a great job, in cleaning up L.A.'s air. But now, we're breathing smog from China.

China does not have to comply with the Paris accord on climate change they agreed to until 2030. They have hundreds of coal fired power plants and are building more. Cheap energy to go along with their cheap slave labor to manufacture more item for Americans. Container ships coming in by the hundreds to LA ports to unload.

Toys and model trains all made in china now. Americans want to be paid top dollar for their labor but only want to pay cheap slave labor when they buy products from china. And Jerry Brown pushes California's relationship with China on the economy.

Roy, you may have to get yourself a gas mask and wear it like the Chinese do.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

...the AQMD is now laboring at gnats, having reached the tail of the cost-benefit curve.

The AQMD did a great job, in cleaning up L.A.'s air. But now, we're breathing smog from China.

China does not have to comply with the Paris accord on climate change they agreed to until 2030. They have hundreds of coal fired power plants and are building more.

Last I read they were moving away from coal as fast as they could realistically to be more independent of everyone else on supply of energy.

[HONDO74]

The AQMD did a great job, in cleaning up L.A.'s air. But now, we're breathing smog from China.

China does not have to comply with the Paris accord on climate change they agreed to until 2030. They have hundreds of coal fired power plants and are building more.

Last I read they were moving away from coal as fast as they could realistically to be more independent of everyone else on supply of energy.

They will eventually, but for now they are stuck with coal. They have hooked up with Russia for a gas pipeline.
Russia’s $55bn pipeline gamble on China’s demand for gas
https://ig.ft.com/gazprom-pipeline-power-of-siberia/

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Here's what I don't understand:

A) Change over to electric cars from gasoline-powered. Go plug your car into a jack, even though there are few around, AND even though a charge-up takes many hours, compared to go-time.

B) Here's the part I really do not get - for the electric power to power such vehicles, coal is burned to make the electric power. Eh? Huh? Wha' ?

Burn coal to make electricity to make a car go. Burn gasoline to make cars go. Is there a difference? Both are carbon-based and both emit gases as a result into the air.

I'm not giving up my gasoline-powered car. Ever.

P.S. And I sure am not switching over to a driverless car. Ever.

[Wolf]

Don't know about your local electric utility, but according to mine (Baltimore Gas & Electric),
the 3 largest segments of their supply mix were:
Nuclear 35.93%
Coal 32.22%
Natural Gas 26.71%
Renewable 4.95%

And coal has been dropping year-to-year--despite the President's best efforts to skew economic reality.
It is cheaper, cleaner, and you don't have the residue disposal problem that you have when using coal,
when you use natural gas.

Burning fossil fuels cleaner in power plants is easier than in cars because of the fact that they are NOT mobile,
and do not have to carry the emissions controls around with them. And the energy-production demands are
more even in power plants--the car has very uneven demands with bursts of power required along with several idle state
periods (think red lights)....steady power states are generally easier to regulate that fluctuating power states.

I'm not sure I'd be switching over to a driverless car either---after all, it can't be sent out to the store by itself
to pick up those forgotten items by itself!

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Here's what I don't understand:

A) Change over to electric cars from gasoline-powered. Go plug your car into a jack, even though there are few around, AND even though a charge-up takes many hours, compared to go-time.

While you sleep?

B) Here's the part I really do not get - for the electric power to power such vehicles, coal is burned to make the electric power. Eh? Huh? Wha' ?

Burn coal to make electricity to make a car go. Burn gasoline to make cars go. Is there a difference? Both are carbon-based and both emit gases as a result into the air.

Natural gas - unlike coal, very low emissions other than CO2 and H2O.

Nuclear - very low emissions except that the US can't figure out how to deal with this sort of energy source

Solar/Wind/Hydrodynamic/Geothermal/Hydrogen fuel cell -very low emissions other H2O

[HONDO74]

Natural gas became more available and less expensive because of fracking. And now that fracking is a dirty term it may lose it's advantage because of possible ground water contamination and earthquakes as some states and areas are banning it.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Natural gas became more available and less expensive because of fracking. And now that fracking is a dirty term it may lose it's advantage because of possible ground water contamination and earthquakes as some states and areas are banning it.

Possible, but there are huge reserves. Really what is needed are new refineries that are designed to produce better quality fuels. Last new refinery was when???

[rex desilets]

Natural gas became more available and less expensive because of fracking. And now that fracking is a dirty term it may lose it's advantage because of possible ground water contamination and earthquakes as some states and areas are banning it.

Possible, but there are huge reserves. Really what is needed are new refineries that are designed to produce better quality fuels. Last new refinery was when???

In CA, in the Dark Ages. NIMBY

[HONDO74]

Natural gas became more available and less expensive because of fracking. And now that fracking is a dirty term it may lose it's advantage because of possible ground water contamination and earthquakes as some states and areas are banning it.

Possible, but there are huge reserves. Really what is needed are new refineries that are designed to produce better quality fuels. Last new refinery was when???

Nobody wants one in their backyard as the saying goes that prevents them being built.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Here's what I don't understand:

A) Change over to electric cars from gasoline-powered. Go plug your car into a jack, even though there are few around, AND even though a charge-up takes many hours, compared to go-time.

While you sleep?...

Nope. It's definitely not as simple as that. Let's say a trip takes 4-5 hrs. and the charge is onlygood for 3-4hrs; then, you are in the middle of nowhere familiar to you, stopped, maybe by a charging station, and then wait for another several hours for the charge? Am I missing something?

What if an emergency arises during the night and your electric car is still charging?

Not good. Not under any circumstances. I can envision. I like my independence to much to tolerate waiting for a charge-up. My gasoline-powered car is always ready to go. Period. (I rarely ever let the gas tank go below 1/2 - 3/4 Full.)
See?

[Mitch]

Murph, the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid will run 36 miles on the battery, after which the 3.6L V-6 engine fires and powers the car. The hybrid shines on short hops. Additionally, every time you leave off the fuel pedal, the battery is being charged. Works exactly like the dynamic brakes on a diesel railroad engine. A fully loaded Pacifica straight gas job will cost you upwards of 45K and up. The hybrid is less money in initial cost, plus the Fed will give you $7500 back, and Pa. will give you $2500 back. So now ya got a $45,000 car for $35,000. The battery is warranted for 10 years. Personally, I don't even like the looks of them. Too much Fiat influence for this old Chrysler man.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Thanks for that perspective, Mitch. I enjoy learning.

[robert.]

"Last I read they were moving away from coal as fast as they could realistically to be more independent of everyone else on supply of energy." Rufus.
You may recall? last year i spoke of an order from china that was delayed. It was a container load of cast iron benches and urns. Due to smog several foundries were closed for months at a time. One of the foundries we use switched over to electric kilns. No more coal fires on their end. They plan to zap cast iron into a liquid. I don't know how well the outcome will be or if the electric plant uses coal.It seems as China is trying a little to clean things up.

[Mitch]

Melting steel in an electric furnace is one of the most impressive operations I've watched in my lifetime. I was in Stelco, (Steel Company of Canada), in Nanticoke, Ontario, waiting to get a load of firebrick off the trailer. I ended up there for about 3 hours before they could get to me, so I donned my hardhat went for a looksee. On the floor of the mill was huge hopper shaped much like a big flour or candy ladle, probably 40' long, about 12' wide and about 8' deep. A magnet crane was piling lift after lift of scrap steel into the hopper 'til it was full. That hopper was sitting on a scale and it was near 350,000 lbs. The big shop crane rolled over it, dropping pulley hooks down onto the long ends, and it picked it up. There must have been about 20 pulleys in each of those hooks. Super slow ratio. When it got it up, the crane rolled over the top of the electric furnace, which I later found out had already received two hoppers of scrap, lowered one end and raised the other and dumped the scrap in. This one was the last one. Another crane slid the lid of the furnace over the top and it was secured. The crane moved out of the way, and another unit was coming down from the roof with 2 huge carbon rods in it. Those carbon rods were about 18" in diameter and maybe 12' long. The craneman pushed the rods down through the lid and into the scrap, and they hit with the juice. There was a massive explosion and the entire mill shook like an earthquake, and the rods began to burn. I mean it was awesome when God knows how many volts and amps went into those rods. Even all the mill lights dimmed momentarily. Hellacious noise comin' out of that furnace, and you could see the red glow and sparks arcing up past the carbon rods, and as the scrap melted, they were pushin' the rods deeper into the furnace. Pretty damned impressive to me, but I guess if that was your daily job, it would be fairly routine. I've also watched the operations in the BOF, (basic oxygen furnace), but the electric unit was more fun to watch.