Hobo Jungle

[sarge]

We in the West tend to pay lip-service to "principle" when we fight wars; in this case it was all about principle. The willingness of Britain to invest that sort of blood and treasure over a pretty inhospitable bit of the planet might not have been militarily "significant" compared to a World War, but the result casts a huge diplomatic shadow to this day. Whitehall is still a voice to be heard where the Quai d'Orsay, for example, is not. In that context, significant.

The cat wasn't interrupted really. For some reason he takes great pleasure in sitting quietly in the library paper basket. A little odd, perhaps, but then again he is the cat that likes to scare the UPS driver by magically sticking himself to the kitchen door with great noise and suddenness.



You've seen this photo before; I need to take a new one since he is much larger now; still does it.

However, under normal circumstance, this is his most cherished hobby:



He's quite good at it.

Back to the Falklands for a moment, give Sandy Woodward's book "One Hundred Days" a go. He was the Battle Group commander for the Falklands expedition. It is a good solid read, takes a little time to address some of the press-hysteria and hand-wringing, and is a pretty even handed treatment to include good analysis of his own mistakes without making excuses. I had the privilege of meeting Sandy Woodward and being able to sit informally and tell sea-stories back and forth. There was much more than met the eye, a quickwitted slightly irreverent twinkle lurked very close to the surface. Fate rather than the Admiralty chose who would command, and Fate made the much better choice.

[rogruth]

Sarge,

I agree with your answer above.Maybe what I may have missed is that there is,or doesn't seem to be,a real end to most of the wars of today.
IMHO WW II had an end,Korea has not ended.Gulf War I ended because we did what we said we would do but as you pointed out the general
populace was convinced that we should have kept going.The same was true of GW II.Most wars do not seem to stop but go on and on for
some.Consider that war that is called in my area "The War of Northern Aggression".In many cases it appears to me that the troops have "won"
a war and the politicians have made changes that affected the outcome.

I really don't know the details of this subject well enough to carry on a decent discussion but am very interested in what you and others say
about it.

What other train forum would be having this discussion?

[webenda]

What other train forum would be having this discussion?

Seems appropriate to me. Railroads have always been and still are a part of any conflict.

[sarge]

Roger:

You hit on a truth in that wars don't really end. WWI is a good example. The diplomats took over again for a while until the diplomacy was no longer enough to prevent the thing from flaring again. In reality WWI and WWII are the same war with an uneasy truce in the middle.

WWII had its continuation in the Cold War in much the same way, with Korea being a flare-up in the Cold War, along with many many other "local" conflicts.

First, we accept the Clausewitz-ian theory that war is diplomacy pursued by other means. Since diplomacy is a never ending function of the relationships between states, then war (which makes diplomacy have some real tooth to it) or the preparedness for war is also a never-ending function of a state. Another way of looking at it realistically is that Law is nothing without the threat of punishment. International Law is also nothing without that threat. Diplomacy is nothing without the threat of war.

There is a body of theory that says there will be war as long as there are nation/states with financial interests that intertwine them. It's probably not far from the truth.

[Mitch]

It still, even with a hardnose tactical reaction, was the typical style of warfare that is a long ugly boring protracted grind that begs this question germane today. Does one climb down in the ditch with ones opponent and thus thrash him on his own terms, or do you enjoy a higher level of "humanity" (if that's possible in war) by not stooping to such behaviour as a nation and accept the consequences in blood, treasure, and especially time. The privilege of the latter requires an unusual resolve as a nation, for democracies rarely have the "staying power" for protracted low-intensity warfare; populations grow weary very quickly after the bands quit playing, and this sort of conflict is the style that takes the longest to successfully prosecute.

It was probably the first clear example of what we face today. We tire of the embarrassments and at being repeatedly poked-at-with-sticks, we suddenly awake in anger; shock-and-awe in the assault phase, then settle into the inevitable nationbuilding in parallel with dirty protracted guerrilla warfare phase that follows. If one forgets this formula first clearly illustrated by some Dutchmen and an Indignant Nation Projecting Power from Far Away now over 100 years ago, one gets the same nasty surprise all over again.

Well said, Sarge. We react, usually, with a quick, accurate, and deadly strike, but then the political BS begins. Politicians simply cannot comprehend the aspect of winning, which is what the military mission should be. An enemy should be punished to the point where they'd never consider offense again. But nooooo, the leaders cave to the political pressure, and we end up losing more American men and women in the follow up than was lost in the initial assault.

Political BS! Nationbuilding--BS!!!! "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" BS!!! We've lost more people and billions of dollars trying to follow this premise than is even countable. But it will continue; it will always continue.

Those who cannot remember (or conveniently forget) history are doomed to repeat it. But what the hell do I know? I'm just a deranged lunatic off his meds.

[healey36]

The press coverage of the Falklands War always struck me as one of the worst examples of wretched excess by the media. I have kept a second-hand copy of "War in the Falklands: The Full Story", compiled by The Sunday Times of London Insight Team on my bookshelf as a reminder. Over the course of those weeks I recall thinking that if I saw one more misattributed photograph of Sheffield burning down to the waterline I was going to cancel my subscription to the Washington Post.

Perhaps the best book I've read on the Falklands is Jeffrey Ethell's and Alfred Price's "Air War South Atlantic". Its fair-minded accounts of the Sea Harriers tangling with incoming Argentine A-4's, Mirages, Daggers and the feared Super Etendards with their Exocets in such a desolate environ is pretty great stuff. The Argies flew to the extreme range of their aircraft, mixed it up with the Brits, then, if they were lucky, flew the thousand miles or so back to their bases on the mainland. I believe the 7,860 mile round trip runs the RAF Vulcans flew remain to this day close to if not the longest range bombing missions ever flown (I don't know what kind of distances the B-52 missions over Afghanistan entailed...they may have eclipsed the Vulcans). A worthwhile read.

[jw_clarke54]

IF memory, or the telling of this is true, No one ever won a war by Dying for His Country, He won a War by making thee Other poor Dumb ****** Die for His Country!! need more like him. and now for reality. Al-q attacks, Iraqis they fold, run like the wind, ditching weapons and uniforms and all the equipment the US left them, civilians on the run as a mob with traffic jams in the sands!! sorry IMHHO clear glass sands might be the only thing to end 3,000 years of bloodshed

[2railjon]

Speaking of war, I admire the Spartan childhood.
My son on the 5.56 M4




7.62X51 M1a in Sage Chassis:

[Mitch]

Ahhh! Future Marine Corps sniper!

[v8vega]

Not much activity on MTJ lately.
I can see that shooting range is not in southern Calif. I saw a road runner the other day at ours.
Los Angeles city mayor is a real proper kind of guy who measures his words carefully and he dropped a scripted F bomb at the Kings victory celebration in a stadium full of kids. This is essential for Democrats.

[healey36]

Tough guy, burr under the saddle, and now navigational wizard...



The other two guys look like they are trying to figure out where they are after following Comrade Un's course instructions...

Healey

[sarge]

Irish pennants, rust, and paint on the brightwork? Certainly not Bristol-fashion...

Is that a scene from the new movie, "Hunt for Dennis Rodman"?

[E7]

Is that a scene from the new movie, "Hunt for Dennis Rodman"?

I think you've nailed it Sarge!

Rich

[tonyh]

Jon, Jon, Jon!

Its a wonder your son did as well as he did! You got the freaking target hung upside down!

Didn't the U.S. Army teach you any better? Shame.

Tony

[Rufus T. Firefly]

June 18 is . . . . International Panic Day

........which oddly enough coincides with my wedding anniversary,