Hobo Jungle

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MurphOnMillerAve
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:15 pm

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
sarge wrote:Did you take into account the weight of those wings themselves in that calc?


Or the energetics of mammals to operate them?

Bats are mammals, and, well, a good-sized and tall-as-a-human (assuming Jurassic Park ll showed us the truth) warm-blooded reptile, pterodactyls,or a Pteranodon Longiceps, a Pterosaur, had 20' wingspan, and managed to get off the ground (or did they glide?) but they were probably pretty bumptious, augmenting their power with attitude. (There was anther one, without the two-sided hammer-head; its name was Dimophodon, that flew.)
Last edited by MurphOnMillerAve on Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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webenda
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby webenda » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:20 pm

sarge wrote:Did you take into account the weight of those wings themselves in that calc?

I did not add the wing weight to the flying weight for a reason that seems to have escaped Rhett Allain, although he hints at it when he says, "It (the formula) looks nice except it doesn't fit very well with the smaller mass birds."

While I was at Lockheed Aircraft I overheard the engineers talking about how the C-5 Galaxy did not fit the usual formulas for aircraft design. They were puzzled and delighted to find it had a much larger load capacity than predicted. Seems the bigger the flying machine, the better its load lifting efficiency.

If you build small model aircraft, 2 to 3 foot wing span, you can see this by comparing the model's wing loading of 1 to 2 pounds per square foot of wing area to, say a Cessna 152 at 10 pounds per square foot or a DC-3 at 27 pounds per square foot. Wing loading of a C-5A Galaxy is 120 pounds per square foot. Can you imagine a 2 foot span model airplane with a 6 inch chord (1 sq ft) weighing 120 pounds?

The wings in the image have an area of 120 sq ft. If made from 0.063 sheet aircraft aluminum, they would weigh 107 pounds each, or 214 pounds total.

Now let's calculate the wing loading for John Travolta's angel act in the photo. (250 lbs + 214 lbs)/120 sq ft = 3.9 lbs/sq ft.
Compare that to the wing loading of the largest flying bird, the Traveling Albatross (aka Great Albatross): 22 lbs / 9 sq ft = 2.4 lbs/sq ft.

I think the flying human weight loading compares very well with the largest flying bird if you consider the bigger is better rule.
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
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webenda
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby webenda » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:47 pm

Rufus T. Firefly wrote:
sarge wrote:Did you take into account the weight of those wings themselves in that calc?


Or the energetics of mammals to operate them?


The average human will never be able to fly by flapping wings. Our legs will have to have enough power to either climb high enough to jump into flight or maybe run down a slight hill to take off. Watch the albatross movie. Once airborne they can fly using energy in the wind. They glide up into higher velocity wind to gain speed, then use that speed plus more speed gained from gravity as they glide down for flying in lower velocity air near the surface. Once that high speed energy is dissipated, they glide up to gain speed from the wind and dive down to gain speed from gravity. Repeat, repeat,repeat. Most birds struggle to overcome wind; albatrosses exploit it.

National Geographic claims a parent albatross may fly more than 10,000 miles to deliver one meal to its chick. A 50-year-old albatross has flown, at least, 3.7 million miles. With wings humans could travel millions of miles fueled by clean, self-renewing, zero-emissions energy, like an albatross.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/ ... afina-text
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sarge
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby sarge » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:19 pm

webenda wrote:
MurphOnMillerAve wrote:Given the average size and weight of us, can you imagine what the wing-span would have to be for us to have natural flight, if we had wings.

You and I? I like that you ask the easy questions. Answer: 28 ft wing span.
Wings for a 250 lb angel.jpg

Credit to Rhett Allain for the formula: w=sqrt(Cm). Reference: http://www.wired.com/2012/01/why-cant-h ... ike-birds/

Secrets of flying without flapping your wings (important for those of us without a high energy to weight ratio.)=> https://youtu.be/uMX2wCJga8g


Having just a little experience in parachutes and sailplanes, I'm not sure I'd buy any of it.

A modern paraglider has an area of something like 400 square feet at the large end (given our 250lb guy example) and a span of something like 40' at the large end, but only weigh some 50lbs all in (harness and a reserve, not just the wing itself). Your 250lb guy with 200lb wings is probably on the far side of a tandem wing, which is quite a bit larger yet.

Since we aren't flapping, let's at least glide. A paraglider has a nominal 10:1 glide ratio, which isn't much better than a private light aircraft at idle (Bob can speak to what a Cub will do for instance, but I think a 152 at idle gets something like 8.5:1 if memory serves).

An albatross or the object of our affections early on, that snowy owl, would probably more approximate or exceed a good sailplane. A rule of thumb for an 18 metre class sailplane is 50:1, and some open-class sailplanes get can a 70:1 glide ratio or so, but needs a little over 100' wingspan, and I doubt they would get that 70:1 with a 250lb pilot.

The real bit is this. The question is not answerable by wingspan alone, but by lift generated over a wing area. Span itself is useless without chord.

Its a fun question, though.

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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby E7 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:42 pm

sarge wrote:Its a fun question, though.


What's more fun is, when are you guys taking off? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:50 pm

E7 wrote:
sarge wrote:Its a fun question, though.


What's more fun is, when are you guys taking off? :lol: :lol: :lol:


To quote the McKenzie brothers - "Take off!"
I expect nothing and I’m still let down.

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webenda
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby webenda » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:26 pm

sarge wrote:
webenda wrote:An albatross or the object of our affections early on, that snowy owl, would probably more approximate or exceed a good sailplane. (Sixteen Wandering Albatross' with GPS trackers attached all had between 22:1 and 23:1 glide ratios. --web) A rule of thumb for an 18 metre class sailplane is 50:1, and some open-class sailplanes get can a 70:1 glide ratio or so, but needs a little over 100' wingspan, and I doubt they would get that 70:1 with a 250lb pilot.


The Schweizer 2-33 I used to fly was specified to have a 22:1 glide ratio. That seemed adequate. I had no trouble flying it around Lake Elsinore for two hours on several occasions, only returning because my ticket time was up.

The 2-33 has 219 sq ft wing area and weighs 600 lbs. Wing loading: (600+250)/219 = 3.9 lbs/sq ft.

Glide ratio does not change with weight or wing loading within reason. Experimenting with a JASCO Thermic 36, it landed in the same spot from a gentle hand launch no matter how many rocks, batteries or lead car weights I put in it. It just got there faster when heavy.
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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robert.
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby robert. » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:12 pm

How would anybody text and flap? People cant walk in an orderly fashion. Now you want to add another dimension to their travel.
I spend entirely too many hours a day tying my shoes

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rogruth
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby rogruth » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:23 pm

Somebody make sure we get videos of this event, please.
roger

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J. S. Bach
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby J. S. Bach » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:13 pm

In Hi-Def of course!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :mrgreen:

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MurphOnMillerAve
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:38 pm

rogruth wrote:Somebody make sure we get videos of this event, please.

It's preserved forever in the great blogosphere, or whatever.

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sarge
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby sarge » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:43 pm

webenda wrote:
Glide ratio does not change with weight or wing loading within reason.


Even that one I'm intuitively not there with, although "within reason" might be the caveat. I'll think about that.

Still, the neatly dodged point is:

sarge wrote:
The real bit is this. The question is not answerable by wingspan alone, but by lift generated over a wing area. Span itself is useless without chord.


Murph's original question is not, as you said, "easy" or even answerable without a bit more definition. Wingspan isn't the only defining factor in calculating an ability to generate enough lift to fly 250lbs by a long shot.

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webenda
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby webenda » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:41 am

Actually, Wingspan is the only defining factor in calculating an ability to generate enough lift to fly 250lbs.

A 28 foot wing span with a 1 inch chord will generate the same lift as a 28 foot wing span with a 28 foot chord.
I'll start with an illustration.
Chord Discussion.png
Chord Discussion.png (12.08 KiB) Viewed 2708 times


Definition: Lift is the component of the aerodynamic force which is perpendicular to the original flow direction of the gas.

Lift is proportional to the amount of air that is turned by the airfoil. In the diagram you can see the streamline flow of air being turned downward.

The amount of turning is a function of airfoil angle of attack. After the air passes the wing, a column of air extending above and below the wing has been turned downward. The chord has nothing to do with the turning, only the angle of attack.

Drag is a function of chord. Dragging 10 feet of wing through the air produces more drag than dragging 1 inch of wing.

The amount of air turned by the airfoil is a function of span only. The mass of that amount of air times the change in vertical velocity (i.e. acceleration) is Lift.
Lift = ma.

NASA has a site explaining all this. It is 4 pages long and starts here:=> https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/wrong1.html

Just look at the short chord on a Lockheed C-130 Hercules. No need to drag a looong chord through the air when lift only depends on span.

C-130.png
C-130.png (120.26 KiB) Viewed 2708 times
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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MurphOnMillerAve
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:07 am

It is somehow oddly comforting to note we are using 250# as a typical weight for our flying, wing-flapping human. That's approx. where I am, nowadays, in tonage, and had been thinking I was, visually, somewhere between a version of Jackie Gleason (though my wife protests I am not, since having lost weight during my Sept. - Nov. medical adventure) and Marlon Brando in The Godfather.

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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: Hobo Jungle

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:45 am

MurphOnMillerAve wrote:It is somehow oddly comforting to note we are using 250# as a typical weight for our flying, wing-flapping human. That's approx. where I am, nowadays, in tonage, and had been thinking I was, visually, somewhere between a version of Jackie Gleason (though my wife protests I am not, since having lost weight during my Sept. - Nov. medical adventure) and Marlon Brando in The Godfather.



I was more concerned about this scenario

Image

and whether we needed to find shelter from pigs on a wing........
I expect nothing and I’m still let down.


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