cleaning brass

[webenda]

The 3-Rail contingent's use of (red) marker lights everywhere drives a retired railroader crazy (although some
of my friends may claim it's only a short putt!)....how is one supposed to determine where the end of the
train is? And don't even get me started on what they are doing with the classification lights!!

Wolfgang,

Member of the 3-Rail contingent here.

Just because you saw one inappropriately placed marker light does not mean the 3-Rail troops all do that. My locomotives came with no classification lights, classification lights with no jewel in them and classification lights with green jewels. Green seems appropriate because there is another train immediately following any train I operate (the same one after traversing the loop.) Almost all my cabooses have no marker lights, not even a bracket to hold one. Now that should drive a retired railroader crazy, especially with another train following the last car so closely.



Can we get back to cleaning brass now?

Edit 1: Corrected quote credit.
Edit 2: Corrected corrected quote credit.
Edit 3: Deleted, "Classification lights are marker lights" and changed some "marker" to "classification."

NOTE--Wolfgang, if you let the others pick* on me long enough you won't have to say a thing about my post, it will be corrected out of existence.

*"Pick" is a good thing here because I am learning as I stumble along.

[bob turner]

The quote is from Wolf, not me. I use jewels in most of my marker and class lamps. I simply do not run enough to make real lights worthwhile.

Murtherfore, I think the 3-rail scale crowd is far more finicky above the belt line about exact scale. They go nuts if the handrails do not come down far enough - I am lucky to get to the handrails at all. My big deals are track, trucks, wheels, and couplers. What is on top can be, and sometimes is, a wood block.

[webenda]

The quote is from Wolf, not me.

I apologize Bob. Will fix the quote immediately if not sooner.

I don't know how that happened, but I have seen it happen to other people. I always laughed at them--feel free to laugh at me.


Corrected quote credit, now I see how it happened. Editing Bob's comment out of Wolfgang's comment I removed Wolfgang's name from quote instead of Bob's name.

[sarge]

I really can't agree with Bob's assessment that three-railers are more proto-"neurotic" (to resurrect an old term from the early years of OST) than 2-rail modellers, although a few of the vocal so-called 3RS "experts" over on OGR make themselves known for their intolerance of a manufacturer/importer's errors, often as a matter of ego methinks. Most 2-rail guys (at least of my generation and association) just smile knowingly and fix it rather than complain because they apparently don't want to fix it themselves.

This not a slam but a reflection of the cultures of origin. We older two-rail guys tend to build and repair our own stuff so a quiet sigh and a joyful cracking of the tools is our way whilst a real fear of voiding warranty, the reliance on "service stations" for repair, &c is deep in the fabric in the origins of today's three-rail world. Thus it isn't a deeper level of neurosis but a different assignment of responsibility (self or importer?) for a model's level of "correctness".

That said, most two-rail modellers I know are far more proto-neurotic; the responsibility for which they also assume themselves rather than hold an importer/manufacturer to.

Wayne, about markers:

The 3-Rail contingent's use of (red) marker lights everywhere drives a retired railroader crazy (although some of my friends may claim it's only a short putt!)....how is one supposed to determine where the end of the train is? And don't even get me started on what they are doing with the classification lights!!

Wolfgang,

Member of the 3-Rail contingent here.

Classification lights are marker lights.

<snip>

No, class lights are not markers.

Markers are red lights, flags, or discs displayed at the rear of a train. Indeed they are what define a piece or pieces of equipment as a "train" by the rulebook.

Class lights were (now fallen out of favour in the USA) lights (or flags by day) displayed at the front of a train to define that train's classification by timetable; white lights an extra not in the timetable, green a section of a timetabled train with another section of that same timetabled train following behind.

For a long time red lights were de rigour on loco models from Lionel, MTH, even Sunset 3rd-rail and Atlas diesels, both front and rear. Looked very snazzy but dam silly and completely incorrect, as red would only be displayed on a loco on the rear as a helper to mark the rear end of a train.

Interestingly, Lionel back in the postwar era usually got it right on the jeweled class-lights on their steam locos.

[webenda]

I must thank you Sarge, for clarifying terminology. I hope never again to think classification lights are markers to help identify the train on which they are displayed.

I googled the subject to prepare an argument. The first page of hits all said or implied, " Markers do NOT appear on the front of a train. A marker delineates the END of a train."
Some even quoted railroad rule books, such as this reference: http://espee.railfan.net/markers.html

So the red things on this locomotive must be markers indicating it is trailing the other locomotive.

Marker lights.jpg (179.71 KiB) Viewed 6648 times

I noticed Bob said, "The average 3-rail scale hobbyist..." and you said, "...three-railers..." Does the word, "scale", make any difference?

[robert.]

Does the word, "scale", make any difference?......yes. Are we talking about a mountain, fish, a tool to weigh, size comparison or the green and white crud that shows up on old brass?

[sarge]

I was implying "three-rail scale" when I used 3RS, which is an abbreviation they themselves came up with to differentiate themselves somehow (and I still admit ignorance as to how) from the hi-rail (scale equipment on 3 rail track) world. Maybe not clear in my last, but the roots have more to do with the vocal takings-to-task over details than some higher interest in or knowledge of the prototype. Most 2-railers just quietly figure out how to fix or detail it for themselves and call it modelling (again the caveat this isn't intended as a slam, just a cultural difference created over many decades of evolution).

Regarding the photo, he could also be a set of pushers. Once coupled up to the train he is pushing, he lights those reds (facing to the rear of the last unit in the pusher consist) and those become the markers of the rear of the train he is pushing for as long as he is there.

A light engine move on some railroads (this is from some 40 years ago now, so perhaps Big Jim can chime in with modern practice) can be run as an extra; we did that on PC during my very brief career quite often between DeWitt and Selkirk. They would sally forth with white showing up front (denoting an extra movement not in the timetable) and red on the rear (denoting a train).

Of course all this depends on some human turning lights on and off appropriately and setting the right lenses (some units in my day had an array of lights each with a fixed colour, and others had color lenses you changed by hand. The RS3s we had even had old Pyle globe-type class lights; the same as they put on steam locos on NYC). Occasionally someone would be less careful than they should...

[CMorrill]

There being not much hope of this thread drifting back to cleaning brass, I'll add to the class light story with saying it was the fireman's duty to install the correct color lens and (on the SP) slide the correct metal number stencil plates into the train number indicator box. No problem on a steam loco. From the inside of the nose of an EMD F7, a different story. Woe be to the green fireman who had the train identified with the mirror image of the train number.

Charlie

[webenda]

Allan, I hope your question about cleaning brass in the dishwasher was answered. If not, tell us to get back on track.

Southern Pacific (1950)

Rule 19:
19. A marker or markers must be displayed at the rear of every train and may consist of flags, lamps, flashing lights or reflectorized devices. At night, markers must display an illuminated or reflectorized red to the rear.
Exception: When train is clear of main track at night in Non-ABS territory, markers must display an illuminated or reflectorized green to the rear.

I wonder if this was one of the things Wolfgang was talking about? I don't know of any 3-railers who change the color of their caboose marker lights from red to green when the train in in a siding. I presume, based on Wolfgangs statement, that all 2-railers dutifully change their caboose markers to green when in a siding and clear of the mainline. Unless of course they are operating in modern times with no caboose at all. Do end of train devices change color? I have only seen them flashing red around here.

[bob turner]

He may have bern referring to Woody's aversion of the Lionel tradition of red class lamps on locomotives?

[Tom Dempsey]

That particular model of lamp had a little handle that would change the color from red to white to green by turning the handle. FRED's don't change color, and only flash when the photocell detects a minimum amount of ambient light.

[rogruth]

There being not much hope of this thread drifting back to cleaning brass, I'll add to the class light story with saying it was the fireman's duty to install the correct color lens and (on the SP) slide the correct metal number stencil plates into the train number indicator box. No problem on a steam loco. From the inside of the nose of an EMD F7, a different story. Woe be to the green fireman who had the train identified with the mirror image of the train number.

Charlie

Never give up hope of a return on MTJ.
You know it is always interesting here.
Look how many things have been discussed
and and they may be helpful to some.

[webenda]

Thank you Tom. I don't know what the rules for rear markers are today, but an internet search comes up with this:

Southern Pacific Rule Book
The 1960 rule book shows the use of red and green in end of train markers, but the 69' only requires red to the rear.

The caboose's rear marker light function is now performed by end-of-train telemetry, best represented by the end-of-train device (ETD), the small metal box with a flashing light on the rear coupler of the last car.

Just as cabooses were variously called hacks, crummies, cabins, etc., end-of-train devices go by a variety of names. Besides ETD, there's EOT, marker, FRED or Freddy (flashing rear-end device), even Billy and Redman.

And as you said, the marker is controlled by a photoelectric cell which turns the flasher on when ambient light levels become low.

http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of ... in-devices

So, if I want to play authentic, the inner loop, with the steam engine and classification lights, would have a caboose with red rear (green side) markers and the outer loop, with a modern diesel and no classification lights, would have no caboose, just an EDT that doesn't even flash when room lights are on.

[rex desilets]

I rise, once again, in defense of 3RS.
"I was implying "three-rail scale" when I used 3RS, which is an abbreviation they themselves came up with to differentiate themselves somehow (and I still admit ignorance as to how) from the hi-rail (scale equipment on 3 rail track) world."
The 3RS world attempts to scale-ize what can be fixed on scale equipment sold for 3-rail use, such as Kadee couplers, fixed pilots, and the like. The more extreme of us also replace pizza-cutter wheels with something better, preferably 172 wheels. The Hi-rail folk are content, and bless their help in the production world, with scale equipment sporting the big flanges and claw couplers.

"Maybe not clear in my last, but the roots have more to do with the vocal takings-to-task over details than some higher interest in or knowledge of the prototype."
Well, when one starts to improve 3-rail equipment a higher interest/knowledge of the prototype tends to follow.

" Most 2-railers just quietly figure out how to fix or detail it for themselves and call it modelling (again the caveat this isn't intended as a slam, just a cultural difference created over many decades of evolution)."
I suggest a foray over to NK and read about some of the effort undertaken by 3RS folk to quietly (well, maybe) fix or detail for themselves.
Where I agree re 2-rail vs 3RS is that there is almost no kit- or scratch-building in the 3RS universe. Although there is devotion to scenery and structures, maybe more so than in the purist world.
I have a friend, devoted 3RS-er, who has just completed a completely scratchbuilt (ex. wheels, gears, motor) B&O E-27. Like me, he insists on an ability to operate on 6-ft min diameter curves.

Rant off.

[sarge]

On the contrary, I watched the birth over on OGR in great detail.

My point is, in counter to Bob's thesis, to argue that 2-railers in general are at least as proto-neurotic and in my experience far more so than any of the 3-rail disciplines and why. I would cite more examples that support this, but I'd better not.

My point was not to take 3RS to task. However, I really should know better; any sort of discussion (no matter how objectively attempted or intended) that involves what goes on in the three-rail world (beyond perhaps the toy-train enthusiasts) is far too fraught with assumed slight, delicate feelings, and easily wounded sensibilities. That world is just far too personal and emotional for me, so I shall stop and get off here.