Hobo Jungle

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Amen, in every regard.

[hev52]

How many asses did ya crack Murph Man when ya were teachin'?............

I know me and my buds had are asses crack quite a few times in school. They would take us out in the hall with another teacher (in case it got out of hand) and nail us with 3-4 cracks on the *** with a hickory wood paddle. Man............did that son-of-a-bitch sting.........Damn!!!!!

Then we would walk back into class with all the chicks and dudes starin' at us and I would look at them and say (it was hevy man) but my *** was still stingin'....................

That's what they need in the schools today. I know I know can't do that no more. I always think though what if they did that today. Would it be any better.........

[shushupe]

It is obvious that, certain people can rise above their lives circumstances(poverty, addiction, a life of crime etc...) and eventually lead extremely worthwhile and fulfilling lives, but that seems to be the exception to what usually happens. Where I live, the number of homeless people, living on the streets, has risen dramatically... including in the rural areas; and there are a, mind-numbing, multitude of reasons for this increase.

I not laying blame or point fingers, here... just stating the obvious. I am not a religious person, and I don't believe their is a grand scheme or master plan to follow. I believe when I die... that's it... just like what happens to all the other living organisms on this planet. I don't think I or any of us... are entitled to anything i.e. I don't expect certain young people to spend many hard years in school to to learn how to be a doctor, to help me when I am ill. Basically, I don't take anything for granted, but I am deeply grateful that enough of us have come together, in what we call ours societies; and we work together for our common good... I like and appreciate that, but I don't expect it. I believe I know the difference between right and wrong, but I don't believe in the word fair... because from what I have seen, the concept of something being fair/fairness is not reality/realistic. To me... we are just another species trying to survive... often in extremely stressful conditions... Our lives here are brief(in the context of time)... and to me, there is a marked difference between living a life filled with tremendous stress, and hardship(just fighting for ones survival)... to living a life where one survival is not always at the forefront... where pleasure and fulfillment are possible.

Rick

[webenda]

I behaved and paid attention my whole life...

You expect us to believe that? Why does your nose look so long today?

If I got into trouble, I was ready for the punishment (usually chores.)

Doesn't that sentence contradict the previous one?

They would take us out in the hall with another teacher (in case it got out of hand) and nail us with 3-4 cracks on the *** with a hickory wood paddle. Man............did that son-of-a-bitch sting.........Damn!!!!!

They gave me the paddle in front of the whole classroom. Some kid would hit me from behind, the teacher would hear the noise and turn around just in time to see me whack the kid back. It was so unfair. It was a learning situation though. I only got the paddle twice before learning to get even with bullies after class.

...I don't believe in the word fair...

I reported each "unfair" paddling the moment I got home because I wanted my parents to hear my side in case the school had reported my misbehavior. (They did not, I could have kept it a secret.) My father said both times, "Nobody promised that the world would be fair."

"James Lee was shot and killed by SWAT team members yesterday, all the hostages are safe after police negotiated with Lee for hours."

That was fair. They gave Lee a chance and when he chose not to take it they took him out. Lee learned a lesson the hard way. I'll bet he never puts other people in harm's way again.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

I behaved and paid attention my whole life...

You expect us to believe that? Why does your nose look so long today?

If I got into trouble, I was ready for the punishment (usually chores.)

Doesn't that sentence contradict the previous one?

No. Just because I behaved doesn't mean I didn't misbehave. Confusing ain't it.

Just looka' this face. Can you see mom's li'l angel?

[rogruth]

I have not studied homelessness but - - - I think [don't have a better word]that there are some homeless persons who choose to be.They may have had problems of various kinds and will not admit to relatives and friends that would or could help them what those problems are.So they just disappear.I am sure that if I or many of you found yourself in this situation we would not be the same as we are now.Would I be too proud to ask for help?Could or would my children give me help?

I think there are too many factors involved to make blanket statements concerning these types of problems.
Hopefully I would try to get myself out of what caused my problems but could I?I don't know and I will not judge.

[The Dirt]

Gentlemen, if I might digress a minute, I trust you guys can see what is happening here. I posted a reply in sincerity to Bikermike, when he expressed some concern about a young homeless girl he had seen on the street in NYC, with the sole purpose of trying to help him, as best I could. Rick, for reasons that I cannot fathom except that he has a personal axe to grind, then jumps on me with this unnecessary and inappropriate post:

Re: those personality disorders that you mentioned(pure anti-social disorder, and reactive attachment)... I think those types of labels are pure bullshit.

Let it be seen clearly that I didn’t start this. Rick started this. He completely ignored the intent of my post, took it off on a tangent, and made an attack. He did NOT say that he disagreed, as one should expect in a reasonable discussion of issues; rather, he felt the need to denigrate.
I then made a good-faith effort to explain from whence I was coming, with this proviso –

You've said your piece, I've said mine. You believe what you believe, as do I

and was the recipient of this remark, dripping with sarcasm:

Oh ya, if you feel that there are superior well educated minds out there, that have a greater ability to interpret the issues we are discussing here... then by all means blindly follow these elite beings.

And without my making a single other reply, he devolved to this:

Sorry man, but Dirt's posts on this thread(especially his last tomb) is, in my opinion, erroneous/wishful thinking... basically bullshit. I like Dirt, and I thought he was more insightful in this area...but, what I have read, by him, on this thread... shows me, the man(Dirt) doesn't know what he is talking about... Basically, he sounds like he has been reading one to many books, and that, he's accepting them as absolute universal truths... which they most certainly are not.

I ask you other gentlemen in this Jungle to clearly see what is happening here. This guy can’t respond about me, (and while knowing NOTHING about me personally, my experience, education, and 25 years of accomplishment and work), without feeling the need, and in profane fashion no less, to devalue everything I think and say.
Please also notice Rick's reaction to the only other person who has challenged what he is saying, (that being Tramp), and I quote…

Rick, seems like you're trying to convince yourself of something though I'm not sure what since you write mainly in generalities

…immediately resulted in Rick devaluing and denigrating Tramp, and I quote:

Tramp, you seem to feel that you have a lock on... homelessness and being on the streets. From what I can see, by what you have written,so far... it(your experience) is not much on substance... at the most, maybe a young guy(you) playing hobo... sort of, that run off and join the circus kind of fantasy, but done in the hobo theme.

So the pattern is clear. So long as people on this forum are obsequious and deferential and respectful to Rick, he is going to be your best friend, but if you challenge anything about his opinion or style, well, you can see the result.
I’d like you guys to consider this, because I feel the need to call a spade, a spade. I’m not necessarily calling Rick a ‘troll’, but he’s exhibiting ‘troll-like’ behaviors, and I base that on this definition from the Urban Dictionary:

One who purposely and deliberately starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks with no substance or relevance to back them up, as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

This Jungle has been around a long time, and it will be fully ten years this Thanksgiving Eve. It’s been a place of fun, discussion, mutual support, and friendship, (as I have made personal acquaintance with several regular posters, including Tramp, Jackie Blue, Will, Hev, Mitch, Highrailjon, Murph, and Tony), and I have had the deepest respect for many others, including all of the regular posters (you guys know who you are, Wayne, Roger, San, Rufus, Marty, Daisy, Andre, and many others), and I have been thrilled at the relatively new arrival of eminently thoughtful and considerate and intelligent hobos of the like of Sarge and Bikermike. I will trust that my own body of contribution here, over those ten years, can speak for my OWN interest in being friendly, entertaining, helpful and supportive myself.

In regards to this current situation, I truly and deeply appreciate the support that has come to me via ‘private message’. And I am most definitely not asking for any of you folks to intervene publicly here on my behalf, (because you will risk the same reaction that has befallen me and Tramp). Moreover, in Life and in my 25 years as a nurse, I have been exposed to many many people with this personality style, and I am more than comfortable in dealing with him. But I’d wager many of you have felt some discomfort over how these last few days have progressed, but such is what occurs when troll-like behavior tries to separate and divide other people who respect each other, and I sincerely hope that this does not happen between me and all the people on this forum about whom I care.

In the meantime, I’ll continue to post here, and trust and hope that I can remain on a friendly basis with the rest of you folks, and we’ll see where my chips fall with Rick.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Rick, I’ll make some brief statements to you.
First, I’ve known Tramp for ten years. I have spent time with him, I’m personally acquainted with his huge body of work in literature, poetry, and art, and he is my friend. His experiences, his accomplishments, his exquisite talents, the deepness of his thoughts, his raw intelligence, and his genuineness and graciousness as a human being are not in question. Your efforts to disparage him are laughable, and tremendously small-minded. And if no one else on this forum feels comfortable in challenging you on this issue, then let me be the only one. I'm calling your opinion ignorant, ill-considered, and thoroughly uninformed, and anytime you challenge him, you are challenging me too.

Secondly, I don’t DIS-like you, and I do pity you for the personal psychiatric crosses you have had to bear. I hope you live long, and prosper. On the other hand, I do not respect you, nor am I intimidated by your aggression, and arrogance, in the slightest. I have already plainly stated that you and I have different beliefs, and that I had no more interest in having any interchange with you, which you would not respect. I understand why you cannot let this drop, and that you cannot help yourself. But I will nevertheless ask you one more time, in regards to me and anyone I consider a friend, (and I will make myself more bluntly clear), please shut up.

[rogruth]

Rick said in an earlier post[I don't remember the topic]that he knew and was known by many on MTJ.I don't know him.There are many on this forum that I would like to meet face to face.I don't think Rick is in that category.I think he has been rather aggressive in his posts on a forum that is generally rather friendly and welcomes many different types and topics.I think I am starting to understand what "troll" means.

Now have at me Rick.I will read it and smile.

[shushupe]

Dirt,

Re: my response to your original post... re: the young girl.

I always thought of you as an extremely compassionate man(you frequently take a sensitive look at your surroundings, and reflect on that in your communications, here.

Your response to the young girls plight, to me, was anything but sensitive, especially trying to impress us with the personality de jour stuff. As I said, earlier to bikermike... I understood he was just thinking out loud... sharing some thoughts on a unsettling situation. Clinical and detached... would be the words I would use to describe your post/response.

BTW, I hope this doesn't offend you... but as soon as you started spouting the personality disorder horseshit, my eyes gazed over and I stopped reading your post. It wasn't until Murph made his post about us being on the same side that... I noticed he mention corrections and something to do with the medical practice. So I went back and read your whole original post... and low and behold you, and nurse Ratchet(spelling?) have something in common.(just joking)

Anyway, now I know why you were, and continue to be defensive... and here I though the issue was closed.

The kindest thing I can do, for you, re: the mental profession... is to abstain re: my viewpoint... which would be limited, and incomplete. As I alluded earlier... legal restrictions prevent me from delving into some of my personal experiences.

Re: Tramp - Reread Tramps few posts re: this issue... I stand by my posts.


One thing the readers might find interesting re: your profession is that... certain psychiatrists/psychologists get very vindictive, especially when someone like me doesn't defer to their opinion. They act as you have acted, here... and try to discredit those that do not share their views...(omnipotent comes to mind).

Anyway, Dirt... take care.


Rick

[kerr]

Rick, you have definitely crossed the line as far as I'm concerned, your last post was the straw that broke the camels back.

Thus far I have made a good faith attempt to maintain the conversation (which I wish I hadn't started) ignoring your lapses in manners by assuming that you would realize by yourself that there is no call for personal attacks except on those occasions when the two posters are old friends and everyone knows they are just kidding around.

You though, are a newcomer and you should make more of an effort to understand the way this forum works or you may find yourself being ostracized which would be shame, I think.

Your remarks about Dirts and Tramps experiences were entirely uncalled for and frankly, in my opinion, bloody rude.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Dirt,
... and low and behold you, and nurse Ratchet(spelling?) have something in common.(just joking)
...Rick

That's an awful thing to say, Rick, and completely uncalled for. Since your primacy in all matters penal and woebegone have not been acknowledged here or otherwise, as far as I know, there is no plcae for you to stand to criticize Dirt's professional position on anything. And where's the "joke"? What is funny there? And you say,"just" ? What is minimal about such rough treatment of a good person?

I could kick myself (and actually have) for not speaking up and taking exception when you first spoke negatively in Dirt's direction. That will be my shame, in all this. Though I did try to say something that was intended to establish some common ground, I can see, now, that the needless, shrill brouhaha you have committed here is way beyond any powers or good intentions I might have had to be ameliorative.

May I suggest, don't leave. Apologize.

Because sir, if there has to be a picking-up of sides, I elect to stand next to Dirt.
Murph

[shushupe]

Some people have contempt/disdain for certain professions... the mental health profession fits into that category for me. Some of you guys frequently post your opinions in the rant section re: certain organizations etc...

Besides my personal experiences... I have never believed in their(the mental health profession's) approaches... to say the least.

Even though my terminology("bullshit"/"horseshit") offends some... I felt I was talking amongst the guys, and gave my candid opinion. I did not know Dirt worked in that arena... I just though he was trying to impress us with some fancy words...

Dirt,

I'm sorry that this played out this way, and I am truly sorry if I hurt your feelings. I considered us to be friends,; and I thought you were up to my candid opinion. I don't always share the same opinion with people that I like... and I can take someone calling me on mine.

Re: your profession... I would be lying if I told you otherwise.

I still think your a good guy... it just creeps me out what you do(just joking... not really).

Anyway, I am truly sorry.

Rick

[webenda]

Rick,

Your candid opinions include personal attacks. Not a good way to converse with friends. We are not your prisoners. You do not have to maintain the upper hand. Relax. Try to enjoy the diversity of opinion here.

[shushupe]

Guys, I was giving the situation here some thought, after my last post; and it would be disingenuous of me to back track on my previous posts... I made them because I feel/felt that way.

I didn't have it in my mind to embarrass Dirt, but there was something about his approach to the young girls situation, that I foundis cold and dismissive.

bikermike, and Murph... I come to this particular forum because I like to be candid... that's my way. Sometimes, I tone down things so the more sensitive members don't get their feelings hurt, but my genuine character is that of a direct man. I purposely try to keep my dialogue as honest as possible, and if some don't appreciate my opinions... so be it.

When I first came to this forum as omax, I thought there was a lot of young punks... running loose. When I realized that many of you were quite a bit older than I had originally thought... I was ready to go elsewhere. I immediately discounted a lot of you... because you were older(definitely a prejudice). Then I saw some current pictures, and I thought what am I doing hanging out with these old guys, online.

Bottom line... I ignored my prejudices and allowed myself to meet, and converse with some cool people, regardless of their age. For the most part, I have enjoyed coming here, but I like real people... not wishy-washy guys. Some of you guys appear to think the world is coming to an end when I don't share your views.

I don't even come close to sharing the same opinions, on a lot subjects, especially, re: that stuff written on the rant forum. Some of you guys are very closed minded, but I still find some common ground/reasons to interact.

bikermike's and Murph's reproaches make me question my participation, here...seems way too sensitive, at times.

I thought we shared some candid pages, together, re: the young girl's/the homeless's plight, and I enjoyed the interaction.

I am curious, what others have to say?


Rick

[sarge]

One does not enter the club, pull up a chair, and call a man's life's work "bullshit", turn lightly to another and refer to his experiences as those of a gadfly, with the expectation of endearing ones self to the membership as a whole.

Rising in righteous indignation and inferring that the members are somehow lacking in manhood because coarse language is not well received as a staple of conversation doesn't inspire one to open arms of welcome either, I'm afraid. I do know all the words, but just because I can play the pipes doesn't mean I'll freely inflict that skill on my friends.

I've made this comment to several of your alter-egos previously, only to take my turn as the target de jour, however my opinion hasn't changed. Call me hopelessly Victorian, but I stand for decorum among gentlemen.

Boorishness is something I cannot abide.