3rd Rail E7 Canon Motor?

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

My 3rd Rail E7 has a big honkin can motor inside...any idea what the current rating is on these things?

Mine is the horizontal motor belt drive. I'm thinking of converting it to battery

[Arthur P. Bloom]

In general use, the expression "current rating" is a measure of a device's ability to dissipate heat safely under load, or to put it a different way, the amount of current a device can carry while staying within its thermal rating.

Do you perhaps want to know how much current the motor draws? That would be something that you would need to determine for yourself, using an ammeter in the track circuit while the locomotive is pulling a typical load on a typical track. If your goal is to use a battery, then it would probably be best to use D.C. on the track during the test. Let us know what you find out.

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Thanks Arthur, but I think I asked the right question this time. I think the current rating will put me in the ballpark on what I want to know. I didn't want to have to open the engine to determine what model number the motor was, but it looks like that's the next step.

[webenda]

My 3rd Rail E7 has a big honkin can motor inside...any idea what the current rating is on these things?

Mine is the horizontal motor belt drive. I'm thinking of converting it to battery

FN38.jpg (67.43 KiB) Viewed 5861 times

Canon FN38-T302N1B
Rated current: 1.7 amps.
Stall current: 7 to 8 amps depending on motor length.

Reference: https://www.canon-prec.co.jp/english/pdf/dcm/FN38.pdf

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Thanks Wayne.

The E7 is the only 3rd Rail engine I have. It runs ok on 072 curves, but I get a strange almost chattering sound above a certain speed. I don't see any wear and tear and figure maybe it's just the drive belt or drive train not playing nice with the curves. My new 2-rail layout should help, along with converting to 2-Rail battery (top speed will be lower) I hope it will be alright.

I may put this off until the Silver Meteor set arrives, I have other engines to convert.

[webenda]

Why can't manufacturers do a better job of dressing the wiring in these things? Instead of cutting the way too long wires that come with the control boards to an appropriate length they just cram everything into the shell as is. When you put it back together (someday) do your best to avoid having the flywheel rub the wires.

[Arthur P. Bloom]

Most industries have their own set of terms. Sometimes these terms get used incorrectly by the end users, or even the manufacturers themselves. It is a constant battle, in business as well as in social contexts, to get folks to use the language correctly. (Just watch, for example, the confusion that arises on forums like this when someone uses a wrong word, wrong syntax, wrong spelling, wrong grammar, no punctuation, etc). The Canon company's specs use the term "rated current." It would be so easy for them to have used the exact term of art "current rating" to describe the maximum current that the motor can draw, continuously, before it gets too hot. Unless, of course, that's NOT what they meant. It's difficult to know. Careful attention to the meaning of electrical and mechanical terms can avoid releasing the smoke.

It would seem, from the specs, that the constant current draw should not be expected to exceed 1.7 Amps. It would also seem that its stall current will be 7-8 Amps. These ratings do not, however, cover your exact application. But I go back to my initial advice (which is my advice to anyone who needs specific electrical info...) If you measure it yourself, under the exact conditions that you would expect on your own layout, you'll have the info you need.

As a fellow operator of battery-powered locos, I understand (I think) what your concern is/was. I have asked myself similar questions. "If I use a 6 Amp-hour battery, and my loco draws an average of [blank] Amps pulling a typical train, how many hours will I get before I need to recharge the battery?" If that's NOT what your thinking was, I have assumed incorrectly.

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Arthur, the only real concern is if the motor will operate or trip the polyfuse. As far as running time I'm getting 2 to 2-1/2 hours on just about all my motors (MTH, Williams/Samhongsa brass, Atlas, Weaver, Lionel, Bachmann).

I've had the 3rd Rail E7 apart once and all I can recall is a LARGE motor inside. I'm going to take it apart this week if not tonight to see it again.

The 2 engines I have (Weaver RS3 and Bachmann E7) that are using the BlueRail 2amp board tend to trip the polyfuse if I start off too slow, I have to manipulate the Ipad controls to get both to move without stalling. I haven't had any issues with the Deltang 3amp boards, yet. The big test may be the 3rd Rail E7

Deltang makes a daughterboard that doubles the current rating for the board to 6amps, so I may have to order one in the future.

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Why can't manufacturers do a better job of dressing the wiring in these things? Instead of cutting the way too long wires that come with the control boards to an appropriate length they just cram everything into the shell as is. When you put it back together (someday) do your best to avoid having the flywheel rub the wires.

I'm thinking that's why I haven't shown any of my BPRC installs they tend to look like what you described

I have to open my Atlas F3 back up so maybe if it looks good (or I can dress it up a bit) I'll post a pic

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

I opened both engines, the motor Wayne showed is the same.

Here's the E7 still with the ERR/TMCC electronics installed (still 3-railed), the front end is loaded with wiring:

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And here's my spaghetti wiring on the F3. Top photo shows 1.1"x1.1"x4" battery, Deltang Rx, and RCS BIK-U3b on/off switch with polyfuses. The charging jack is on the rear of the shell and the LED headlight is taped to the inside of the shell.

The wiring isn't THAT bad, I simply have it looped so it doesn't snag:

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Next photo shows the on/off switch protruding underneath the chassis. I could have put it on the rear with the jack, but this seemed like a good spot. I can turn the engine over to turn it on or flip it with a small screwdriver:

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The center roller wiring on the E7 is not my most favorite item on the model, actually feel it is inferior although the rollers are excellent as is the rest of the model. Of course it'll all come off when I convert it

[webenda]

Arthur, the only real concern is if the motor will operate or trip the polyfuse.

You believe you should test it yourself as Arthur suggests [opinion].

Did you see the note at top of FN38 specifications? "Changes on winding configuration, shaft length or other customizing available."
What are all those numbers after FN38 (FN38-T302N1B)? They are wire size and winding turns specifications and a few other things. Does 3rd rail use a stock 12 volt Canon FN38 or is it custom wound for model train engine use? I could not find enough information on the Canon website to figure it out.

I tested my LionChief Plus GP7 and was surprised at the low current (0.2 amp true rms light*, 1.0 amp true rms stalled with wheels slipping.) I have one Lionel locomotive with a single Pullmor motor that causes the CW-80 overcurrent light to come on when stalled. You cannot really know what a motor will draw without measuring it in the environment it is used in [not opinion, experience].

* "Light", meaning pulling no cars, smoke unit turned off.

Thank you for the photos. One of them answers, "Where does the speaker go?" It goes over a truck (no motor in the way.) Another answers, "Where do you put the batteries?" The answer, "Between the China Drives."

[robert.]

Bobd, your second to last photo shows a battery pack. Does that power your train for 2-2.5 hours? what do you use for speed control?

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Thanks again Wayne!

Arthur is right, I do need to test the circuitry. I was really surprised when I converted the Williams N&W J, it weighed 14lbs and never thought a battery would hold up. Not sure what the E7 weighs but it's not light.

Robert, I use 2 types of batteries. Most are 9.6v, 2000Mah NiMh packs while a few are 11.1v, 2200Mah LiPo packs, both give me 2-1/2 hours of run time. The LiPo batteries seem to have better low speed performance, the way I understand it is it's because LiPo batteries have a lower internal resistance. The Atlas F3 uses the 9.6v pack, the Williams J uses the 11.1v pack.

The chargers I have take about the same time to charge the packs at 1000Mah/hr, NO fast charging.

I have 3 different transmitters, all from RCS Australia (Tony Walsham). Over 2 years now without a failure of any components, including batteries. The transmitters use 9v batteries.

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Thought I'd provide a bit more information.

One of the first engines I converted was a MTH RailKing Imperial USRA 0-6-0, mainly to see if the battery would fit in the small tender.

All went well and the engine has performed flawlessly.

I recharged the battery back on February 11, 2017. I have not turned the engine on over the past 2 months and turned the engine on this morning. It worked fine but I only ran it for about 5 minutes. I have not experienced any battery problems, other than the engine stopping when the circuitry in the Deltang Rx detects low voltage.

For small engines, a small (less than 1000Mah) battery pack should work. I figure a 1000Mah battery would last for 1 hour and take that long to recharge. I rarely run my switchers that long so I would be good with that time.