A second look at MTH

[N&W746]

About 18 years ago I was a MTH fan then in part because of Bob Grubba and others Lionel started to catch up - then there was the law suit, et al. Purchased 6 Legacy diesels in 2014 (blowout sales were common then before BTO) only to discover they will not smoke for long in conventional - Lionel has never admitted this. This year tried 2 LionChief+ locos - the steamer smokes ok - the diesel is at Lionel for warranty work. While browsing TrainWorld sales online they offered 2 MTH diesel models(GP30 and C628) at about 60% of retail. Bought the 2 and they are smoking up my train room - I am a happy campier. Sorry Neil.

[rogruth]

This may not be the right place but since smoking locos are mentioned here my question may be OK.
As mentioned above and in many other posts, smoke and the amount of smoke seems to be very important to many.
Personally I don't care much for smoke and usually have it off unless I have visitors to my layout that are not model railroaders.

My question is; how important is smoke in the selection of a loco, either steam or diesel, to you?

I have seen mention by some that MTH locos usually smoke better than Lionel. I don't know if that is true.
I don't think I have ever actually seen an MTH loco so I can't make any comparison.
Also see that Gunrunner John has a modification to get more smoke. Does it make a difference?

[Roy]

...I am a happy campier.

The campier, the better.

[chuck]

Stuff that comes out of a model train doesn't look like anything I've ever seen in the 1:1 world. If a diesel is operating properly you shouldn't see any smoke. This stuff is actually vaporized oil and it tends to make a mess when it condenses back into "oil". The more "smoke" the more mess.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

.................smoke and the amount of smoke seems to be very important to many.

Seems to be an odd criterion by which to measure & decide what or whose models to buy; I'd not even put it as tertiary.

Accurate model, runs well, would seem some aspects that one might be interested in.....

If I want smoke, I light a fire in the fireplace.

[gregj410]

You'll forget all about the smoke unit when you get the 'engine not found' in the remote

[Neil]

"I am a happy campier. Sorry Neil."

Hey, I'm pleased you are happy. They're your lungs .

[N&W746]

Of course its really vaporized mineral oil - the same principle that A C Gilbert used starting in 1946. My first memories of an electric train was a AF K5 set my father brought home about 1950. The only animation (well it also had a headlight and cho cho sounds)was the cedar smelling 'smoke' coming from the stack. The set gave me a lasting interest in large electric trains that smoke and PRR steam engines. MTH trains do smoke best and are the most reliable with this feature - that has been my observation over the last 20 years. Lionel won the war with MTH mainly because of its name - its an century old famous trade name like Xerox used to be. Surprised that the health issue has come up - not really but our current president who many on this forum voted for wants to bring back dirty coal - he promised he would.

[webenda]

Purchased 6 Legacy diesels in 2014 (blowout sales were common then before BTO) only to discover they will not smoke for long in conventional - Lionel has never admitted this.

Can't be sure of what you are talking about N&W746 but I believe Lionel has addressed the low smoke issue.

Chop vs smooth sine wave smoke performance
https://youtu.be/OMR25JoCZiU

Smoke Units 101 by Mike Reagan
https://youtu.be/7-DEZ6CErz0

I do not have any MTH locomotives* with smoke units in them, but I believe your assessment on MTH smoke output.
https://youtu.be/3jOycyh_IKQ

*I have a single MTH locomotive, the 4-6-0 NYC # 1242, but it is gutted, no smoke unit, no MTH reverse control unit or sound. All it has is a rectifier so it can run in one direction.

[Roy]

Would be nice if the models came with fast-dissipating steam units, rather than oil vapor units.

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

My question is; how important is smoke in the selection of a loco, either steam or diesel, to you?

Not important at all. Don't like it, took all the smoke units out of my engines as I bought them.

One thing that lead to this...Around 2004 I lost my sense of smell due to what I think was a sinus infection (by the time I went to the doc it was too late to tell).

I can smell things, but usually they don't smell like they're suppose to. I can't describe what a burning fireplace smells like, but when I go outside and smell the "smell" I know what it is. $100 perfume smells like dirty mop water (it saved me some $$$ before my wife passed!).

The train smoke smells odd too, even before I lost my sense of smell model train smoke didn't smell like real coal smoke to me.

I wish they'd take out the smoke units and install a speaker in its place.

[rogruth]

Wayne,
Thanks for showing those videos.
To me the smoke output from the diesel using the modern transformer was just fine.
I actually had trouble seeing it. Most of what I see above real locos seems to be heat unless the loco is having a problem or is an Alco.
The third video showing all the smoke is a real turnoff for me even on a steam engine. In my small train room you wouldn't be able
to see the trains with that much smoke.

[chuck]

There was a train show over in Livonia a few years back and one of the modular clubs had set up a large layout to showcase the trains. They had a simple three track loop and were running a bunch of MTH steamers on it. Very impressive smoke output. A young family came in and were admiring the trains until the youngest in the stroller started coughing himself silly. Mom glared at dad and did a 180 out the door and went back to the car. While this family drama was playing out a couple of the engines started showing signs of serious wheel slip. When someone ran their hand along the track it came back slick with oil. This triggered a "discussion" among st the club members as to who had over lubed their engines. It only took another five minutes or so before someone realized the tops of all the rolling stock within two to three feet of the engines were also covered in a film of oil. It was rapidly decided to only run one engine at a time with the smoke dialed back a bit.

While I like all of the bells and whistles (literally) I usually turn off the smoke and run the trains with signal sounds only (aka horn/whistle/bell). I will load up the HE with "smokey fir" and run it around the tree a few times to get a pine scent in the room and then shut it down. The cats were intrigued by the smoke rings it blew and I would chalk it up to being a result of "Magic".

[Roy]

I like the look of the puffing smoke feature, but I wish it was just steam. It's got to be healthier than breathing oil vapor.

[N&W746]

Wayne - here is what happens on legacy locomotives running in conventional mode (Z1000 chopped wave). When you fill the locomotive for the first time it smokes well. When its time to refill adding fluid gives only limited smoke. Refill again and usually no smoke. Eventually adding smoke again causes the smoke unit to overflow and the overflow detector causes 3 blinking light in the cab and the need to turnoff the smoke unit until repaired. The repairman for Charles Ro gave a different part number on OGR of a Lionel smoke unit filler that works better in conventional mode than the one that it came with. JLong once mentioned that he got an Legacy GP9 to smoke in conventional by removing the dynamic hood and the passageway to the smoke unit and putting the fluid in the unit itself. Mike Reagen was answering questions live on OGR one time and I ask him what voltage was needed to get a Legacy locomotive to smoke and he said 12 or 13 volts for much smoke. Who can run a train at 3/4 throttle on their layout - usually not possible.
I started this thread not to discuss the merits of toy train smoke but to criticize Lionel for being so fat and dumb and happy. TMCC locos smoke in conventional and Legacy locos don't. LionChief+ locos smoke in remote mode because there is 18 volts applied to the track. Try to get it to smoke in transformer mode - bet it will be difficult. Same design problem. Of course with BTO Lionel can price Legacy locos out of sight - the new SP AC-9 has a retail of $2000 - obscene. So when these BTO locos don't sell Lionel will phase out Legacy(except for high end steam) and just put most locos on LionChief+ electronics. Look at the latest catalogue - the SD60M is offered at 650 in Legacy and 500 in LionChief+ - exact same shell and details. The former Nasscar model car warehouse manager(CEO at Lionel) will finally get his wish - cheaper, toy like trains for the masses.
Its no secret that MTH is hanging on mainly because of loyal customers. Look at PS3 - it no longer has a battery but a capacitor that charges up in conventional mode. The loco will run on AC, DC, DCC, and DCS. You can even convert it to 2 rail operation. In convetional mode using the horn/bell buttons will activate the couplers and other options. If you look past the owner and just look at the products MTH trains have a lot to offer in my opion.