Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

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G3750
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Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby G3750 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:54 pm

All:

I've been playing around with a track plan for the new house. So far, this is my thinking on PRR Panhandle 2.0.

Vital Statistics & Decisions:
  • Size & Shape: Folded dog bone – 39.5’ x 11’ with a 7.5’ x 11’ staging area – approximately 517 square feet. This layout is nearly 3x the size of the previous version. Layout height is 50”.
  • Track: Mostly GarGraves with some Curtis and Ross sectional curves. Turnouts are Curtis Hi-Rail and Ross Custom Switches. Mainline curves are O72. Roadbed will be cork instead of Vinylbed.
  • Yards: Weirton Junction, Weirton Steel, Coal Mine Spur, Staging
  • Command System: Layout will be completely TMCC with the exception of the River Route, which will use a Track Power Controller (TPC-400) to permit both Command and Conventional operation. Turnouts have Z-Stuff DZ-2500A & C switch machines and are both TMCC and pushbutton controlled. Initially, will have 2 DZ2001 switch buses. [Considering SC-2’s]TBD.
  • Wiring & Blocking: Wiring will be home-run from terminal blocks located within each district. Track bus wires will be 14 gauge 2-conductor ribbon wire aka zipcord (black / red). Track feeders will be GarGraves pig-tails. The layout is divided into 8 power districts (blocks):
    • Steubenville (Main Line)
    • PRR Bridge (Main Line)
    • Weirton (Main Line)
    • River Route (separate loop; TPC goes here for running convential or command)
    • Coal Mine Spur (yard)
    • Weirton Junction (yard)
    • Weirton Steel (yard)
    • Staging (yard)
  • Power: 8 Lionel 180 watt PowerHouses supply all track power to districts 1-8. Two (2) K-Line PowerChief 120F transformers supply power to switch machines, some lights, and some AC accessories. All DC accessories, building lights, traffic signals and street lights get their power from respective 3VDC, 5VDC, and 12VDC power supplies.
  • Power Distribution: A transformer cart and distribution panel will be located centrally to the right of the bridge. Features are:
    • Panel will be large enough to permit all transformer connections to go to individual terminal blocks for distributing power to the eastern and western sides of the layout. Panel will have spare room for expansion and ease of access.
    • Each power district will have an indicator light for its bus.
    • All TMCC components will be mounted on the panel.
    • All 8 Lionel 180 watt PowerHouses will be mounted on the cart.
    • Both K-Line PowerChief 120 transformers for the switch machines and some AC accessories will be mounted on the cart.
    • All DC power sources for accessories and lights will be mounted on the cart.
    • Layout reference and operating manual will go on the cart (simplify).
    • Spare fuses, lubricating oil, and smoke fluid will reside on the cart.
    • Signals: Z-Stuff DZ-1060 PRR position signals (4) & MTH PRR signal bridges (2). The layout is only signaled for travel in the counter-clockwise direction.

PRR Panhandle 2.0 v012.jpg
PRR Panhandle 2.0 v012.jpg (766.96 KiB) Viewed 6851 times


Comments? Thoughts?

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

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Jim K
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby Jim K » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:26 pm

George,

Comments:

1.Can't tell from the drawing but you can't have too many access openings ( I know as I do not have enough
and my layout is only 14' by 8'.

2. 50 inches seems very high to me but I know there are a host of reasons for high layout heights. I know of
a nice HO layout that to me is a pain to operate on due to its height which must be 54" plus. It is very difficult
to see across the table to locate turnouts etc. for operating; especially in the yard. But to each his own.

3. Are you relocating some Curtis turnouts? I loved those things but couldn't get anymore as I think the Owner
of the company had health issues.

Thoughts:

You will have a lot of fun building this and we will get to watch the progress. Looking forward to it.

Train ON

Jim K

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jlong
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby jlong » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:16 pm

I like the plan. It's looks well thought out. Not too crowded and you've got straights in your S curves. The only improvement I can think of is to work transitions into your curves if laying Gargraves flex for graceful operation. 50" is a good height depending on how tall you are. It's like watching trains from the trackside. Besides. it's easier to cut the legs down than to extend them if you don't like the height.
John Long

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healey36
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby healey36 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:13 pm

Track plan looks great...I'm glad to see you did away with all of that hidden trackage beneath the main part of the layout in PRR P/H 1.0.

That said, I think fifty inches seems crazy-high. Mine is forty-one inches off the floor and at six-foot four-inches tall, that feels about right. Having met you at York at Murph's one year, I think you were a couple inches shorter than me. At fifty inches you are going to have trains running under your arm-pits when you reach across the table. Kids are going to have to stand on a chair to see what's going on. The upside is you will have plenty of room under the table...you could put a small apartment under there for those times the wife is hacked off you're down in the train room rather than helping her decorate the new digs upstairs.


Healey

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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby G3750 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:24 pm

Jim K wrote:George,

Comments:

1.Can't tell from the drawing but you can't have too many access openings ( I know as I do not have enough
and my layout is only 14' by 8'.

2. 50 inches seems very high to me but I know there are a host of reasons for high layout heights. I know of
a nice HO layout that to me is a pain to operate on due to its height which must be 54" plus. It is very difficult
to see across the table to locate turnouts etc. for operating; especially in the yard. But to each his own.

3. Are you relocating some Curtis turnouts? I loved those things but couldn't get anymore as I think the Owner
of the company had health issues.

Thoughts:

You will have a lot of fun building this and we will get to watch the progress. Looking forward to it.

Train ON

Jim K


1. The RED areas are access hatches and hand holes. I am also concerned about reaching trains. The current Panhandle is very bad in that respect. The number and location of these will undoubtedly change as construction proceeds.

2. 50" is the working height at this time. I'm trying to leave enough room under the layout to use a stool equipped with wheels. I have also considered 48".

3. I am attempting to re-use as many Curtis turnouts as possible. They are true gems. Unfortunately, I don't know how many will be used in 2.0 as most are O54. I will probably sell them. Should I keep you in mind? I last spoke with Frank Curtis back in 2007, I think. He was thinking about retiring and wanted to get a job that actually had some retirement and health benefits. I think he made the best turnouts in the 3-rail world.

Thanks for the comments and kind words. I feel like this version is much better than the old one.

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

—Katy Faust

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G3750
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby G3750 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:28 pm

jlong wrote:I like the plan. It's looks well thought out. Not too crowded and you've got straights in your S curves. The only improvement I can think of is to work transitions into your curves if laying Gargraves flex for graceful operation. 50" is a good height depending on how tall you are. It's like watching trains from the trackside. Besides. it's easier to cut the legs down than to extend them if you don't like the height.


Thank you, John. I really wanted to achieve that un-crowded look. My goal is to have large areas of foliage and nice trackside vegetation. And yes, I paid special attention to that "S" curve off the east end (east bound) of the bridge.

As to height, I'm still debating the exact value. However, I think there is something positive about having to look up at mountains. Might lend a sense of reality to the layout.

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

—Katy Faust

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G3750
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby G3750 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:37 pm

healey36 wrote:Track plan looks great...I'm glad to see you did away with all of that hidden trackage beneath the main part of the layout in PRR P/H 1.0.

That said, I think fifty inches seems crazy-high. Mine is forty-one inches off the floor and at six-foot four-inches tall, that feels about right. Having met you at York at Murph's one year, I think you were a couple inches shorter than me. At fifty inches you are going to have trains running under your arm-pits when you reach across the table. Kids are going to have to stand on a chair to see what's going on. The upside is you will have plenty of room under the table...you could put a small apartment under there for those times the wife is hacked off you're down in the train room rather than helping her decorate the new digs upstairs.


Healey


Boy, if I learned nothing else... :lol: That hidden track was a true PITA aspect of the first Panhandle and it had to go. The steel mill traffic was the justification for the below layout yard. I'm really stoked about the new Weirton Steel area on this version. I went from 18"x10' to 4.5'x11'! And the way the space worked out, I have room for a blast furnace. I also have room for all the spurs needed to service each mill properly. It's a big improvement and totally eliminates the need for a hidden below layout yard.

I like the idea about the apartment. :lol: Let's hope I don't have to use it. :D

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

—Katy Faust

gnnpnut
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby gnnpnut » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:51 pm

Hi George:

Gotta ask. How big is the actual basement? Where are the HVAC, water heater, laundry room, other obstructions?

I absolutely HATE to duck under anything anymore. I'm wondering if you would not be better served with a shelf style layout going around the outer periphery of the basement (where possible), with a peninsula jutting out for the steel mill area.

I'm forever amazed how much railroad can be done with a 24" to 30" deep shelf with good backdrops, even in O scale.

Regards,
Jerry

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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby G3750 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:01 pm

gnnpnut wrote:Hi George:

Gotta ask. How big is the actual basement? Where are the HVAC, water heater, laundry room, other obstructions?

I absolutely HATE to duck under anything anymore. I'm wondering if you would not be better served with a shelf style layout going around the outer periphery of the basement (where possible), with a peninsula jutting out for the steel mill area.

I'm forever amazed how much railroad can be done with a 24" to 30" deep shelf with good backdrops, even in O scale.

Regards,
Jerry


Well Jerry, the actual basement is very large. The train room is the largest room at 47'x14', but the other side of the basement (sorta in the green area) has another room that will become the workshop. That area also houses the furnace, water heater, a powder room (unfinished) and a laundry tub. The laundry room is upstairs. There are no obstructions in the train room.

I'm not a fan of duck-unders, either. But actually, this layout does follow the outer perimeter of the basement, at least in this room. Weirton is on a penisula, albeit large. Steubenville is a "blob" on the left side of the layout. However, these towns don't really have much track in their interiors. Their interiors will contain city streets and buildings.

I'm having trouble seeing your idea. If you want to put up a sketch, that would be very helpful.

Thanks!

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

—Katy Faust

gregj410
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby gregj410 » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:53 am

What? No DCS? :lol: You know George........ that is going to reduce the interest in this layout build drastically. :lol:

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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby chuck » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:51 am

Nice design. I would echo the concerns about the height. Have you looked into some kind of creeper for access under the layout? Automotive ones are too low but something like that with a back rest might get the height down to 46"?

Any thoughts to putting in a double crossover or back to back crossovers in the area between the "big bridge" and the steel mill? This would allow for a reversing loop to turn trains around? Is that a hidden wye in the steel mill? I understand you have set up your signals for counterclockwise operation.

Green area. Can you cut "windows" into that wall so visitors can get a look at the layout from a different perspective?
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G3750
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby G3750 » Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:46 am

gregj410 wrote:What? No DCS? :lol: You know George........ that is going to reduce the interest in this layout build drastically. :lol:


You are correct - no DCS. It's drama that I'm trying to reduce, John. :roll: :lol:

George
What is a 'Conservative'? "Someone who wants society and policy to recognize objective reality- economic, biological, and historical."

—Katy Faust

gnnpnut
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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby gnnpnut » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:07 am

Removed duplicate post. I must have been brain dead yesterday.
Last edited by gnnpnut on Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby jlong » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:54 am

A shelf layout follows this principle. Of course you can elaborate on it such as a point to point arrangement with reverse loops on each end or adding a peninsula for a yard. Command control systems make them practical. A 50" height is not uncommon with this type of design.

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Re: Sneak Peak: Preliminary track plan for PRR Panhandle 2.0

Postby jlong » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:02 am

Another concept to consider is the ceiling layout concept which is gaining popularity in the UK. You don't have to worry about dust settling on the track and fouling DCS signals. The center rail is replaced with a flat magnetic strip for a gravity system. The acceleration rate of the magnets is 12m/sec sq. When reversed to the earth's gravitational pull, your trains will see a gravitational pull of 2.2m/sec sq. You will see a drastic increase in pulling power of your engines, thus eliminating the need for traction tires which also foul DCS signals.

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