Mercedes of Steam

[bob turner]

Thank you. It is really easy to pull those cylinders off. And while changing a firebox is a very big deal, I suspect steam pipes would be child's play.

Remember, I am the guy who thought the straight boilers were problematic on the Sunset SP Mikes and Decks. My friend Jay was more concerned with the headlight visor. Was that really a decade and a half ago?

Yes, the S2 was Williams by Sunset. Mort got me to buy the 3-rail pilot model. With 2-rail wheels and drivers, the only real difference is the unsprung tender trucks. An impressive, robust model!

[E7]

Yes, the S2 was Williams by Sunset. Mort got me to buy the 3-rail pilot model. With 2-rail wheels and drivers, the only real difference is the unsprung tender trucks. An impressive, robust model!

No.....The first (more highly detailed) S2 was imported under the Sunset name. (only in 2 rail )

The second less detailed version, was a project Williams abandoned, which was taken over by Sunset under the 3rd Rail moniker in both 2 and 3 rail models.

There is no such thing as "Williams by Sunset" Sunset and Williams were competitors!

[Big Jim]

Thank you. It is really easy to pull those cylinders off. And while changing a firebox is a very big deal, I suspect steam pipes would be child's play.

Try pulling those cylinders off when they are molded into the casting! BTW, "child's play" does not come easy to just anyone!

[bob turner]

I humbly stand corrected!

My buddy Greg recently did a superdetail of the S2. Not sure I still have the photos. Greg is way out of my league for accuracy down to the microscopic level.

[bob turner]

The Williams "J" - handsome enough for me. Could hammer nails with it.



Ten minutes with a Dremel disc and those brake cylinders would be gone! They really don't bother me - but I note I never added a tail beam. That is serious!

[E7]

My buddy Greg recently did a superdetail of the S2. Not sure I still have the photos. Greg is way out of my league for accuracy down to the microscopic level.

Presume you are speaking of Greg of Thurmond fame?

[bob turner]

Yes. He is well known, but avoids fora. I have permission to post his photos. Usually spectacular - rivalled only by Chris Rock and Sethian. Master modelers all.

[Chris Rock]

I ran the wheels off of my Williams J when I was in 3 rail. I still have the engine. By most who have seen it run, I'm told it is the quietest Williams J they'd ever seen. The motor burned out on mine while it was running around the Christmas tree the first year I got it. I took it to Williams and they fixed it right. It probably did not hurt that the repair guy from Williams was a member of our local train group.

For a representation of the model after it had the accident in 1956(?), I don't think it is a bad looking but it does have some flaws. I have a few things that stand out to me to add to what Jimmy and Bob pointed out.

The engine boiler and smoke box are stretched out some, I think it was a half inch or so, maybe a little more. I was told the reason for this is that the Williams J and Niagara used the same frame. The Niagara has 80 inch drivers, I think, and the J uses 70 inch drivers. You can imagine what that will do to the model. The one good thing for the J in that regard is that the correct sized drivers will fit in there easily.

Another thing that stands out to me is the tiny cylinders on the model. I'm not sure if that is a byproduct of sharing Niagara parts.

The trucks on the tender are incorrect but I think the tender is beautifully shaped.

It is a streamlined engine that doesn't need all of the detail and is a lot of engine for the money for sure. The streamlined casing up front is really well done.

[Chris Rock]

Jimmy,

Overall I think the Lionel A model has a good look to it with a lot of added detail. It is difficult to judge from photos but it looks like the feed water heater in front of the stack on all of these Lionel models is very large and possibly oversized. I wish I could see it in person.

I'm sure you got the earlier version of the Lionel A which does not apply to some of what I'm looking for in the later version.

I do have one question about the tender on the earlier version, and I don't have any of my books here. I thought the tenders got at least some beauty treatment that covered the frame of the tender even in the earliest stages.


My issues with the later versions of the Lionel A almost requires a small spreadsheet to keep it straight.

My observation is that the 1218 is the most accurate of the later versions. Unfortunately, that accuracy puts the engine in excursion service. The jacketed smokebox eliminated detailed piping that should be there for engines in service. I'm not sure if Lionel used 2 different molds for the early versions of the A and the later versions.

The 1211 is one that I am considering, however, since Lionel used the same mold as the 1218, it also has the jacketed smokebox which puts me on the fence. The reason I'd pick the 1211 over the 1218 is that it does not have the gloss paint. It'll give me an excuse to look through photos and videos to see if, which and when some A smokeboxes got covered. Adding missing piping over a jacketed smokebox would look strange as having the smokebox covered in the first place.

The 1238 is another engine I am considering with the roller bearing rods. The 1238 also has the jacketed smokebox issue but it has another problem in that the tender trucks and entire tender actually is completely wrong. With this one I could swap tenders with an MTH A and change the numbers on the MTH engine to make it okay with some work. The bell for the 1238 is in the wrong place but that is a minor and fixable issue.

[E7]

Chris and Jim,

How about a rating of the J's, best to worst? (NO 3 Rail - no one out there to convert it!)

[Chris Rock]

E7,

That is sort of funny and sad. There really isn't one that I'd raise to such a high standard that I'd put the others aside. It is based on what is most important to you and some excel in some areas and fail in others. The streamlined casing of the J is very complex to the point where all 14 J's might not even have been the same. They were hand crafted. Jimmy's dad actually created them.

If your emphasis is on that streamlined casing then I'd say MTH and Williams got it right. Lionel and Overland are a little disappointing and Sunset is atrocious.

If your emphasis is on drivetrain/siderods, I'd say Overland, Sunset and Lionel got it right although Lionel is terribly chunky. MTH tried to represent it to some degree.

On the overland model the cylinders are beefy in a good way, the counterweights are really there and stick out, and wheels are right. If they'd have done the front of that skyline casing right I'd have been all in on it. Some of the details are not there but so are they not on the other models.

I run the MTH on my railroad. The skyline casing really means a lot to me on the first count, and I added weight to them and they can pull a 12 car train up a 3% grade like nothing. I think Overland corrected the skyline casing when the did the H0 model after the 0 model. It figures. The HO guys were also mad when the 0 guys did not see that the doorway was not correct INSIDE a vestibule on one of the passenger cars. There were only 40 0 sets made which probably did not go to 40 guys. Which of those guys looked inside the vestibule to see that the door was not correct? I sure as hell did not. I mean, ****.

Other smaller details could be argued by someone else and I'd be happy to confirm or deny or how important those are to me.

I heard someone say that the Overland J was Sams FU to Overland. I'm not sure if that was quite correct.

I'll say, Jimmy and I communicate somewhat regularly when N&W trains are being made, and we work through things together pretty well. We are pretty close in internet terms. Love the guy, really. If Jimmy wants to talk about N&W details, I'll stand up and take note.

[E7]

E7,

That is sort of funny and sad. There really isn't one that I'd raise to such a high standard that I'd put the others aside. It is based on what is most important to you and some excel in some areas and fail in others. The streamlined casing of the J is very complex to the point where all 14 J's might not even have been the same. They were hand crafted. Jimmy's dad actually created them.

Chris, A bit surprised you don't have a favorite! I recall Jim mentioning about his Dad doing the skyline casings.

If your emphasis is on that streamlined casing then I'd say MTH and Williams got it right. Lionel and Overland are a little disappointing and Sunset is atrocious.

If your emphasis is on drivetrain/siderods, I'd say Overland, Sunset and Lionel got it right although Lionel is terribly chunky. MTH tried to represent it to some degree.

On the overland model the cylinders are beefy in a good way, the counterweights are really there and stick out, and wheels are right. If they'd have done the front of that skyline casing right I'd have been all in on it. Some of the details are not there but so are they not on the other models.

I have (somewhere) a prototype photo or two, and looking at the loco head on and it just looks massive, which is what I like.

I heard someone say that the Overland J was Sams FU to Overland. I'm not sure if that was quite correct.

To the best of my knowledge all of Overland's stuff was made by Ajin Precision. I never heard of Samhongsa doing anything for them.

Sunset used Sam a lot. All the above is to the best of my recollection.

I'm not really looking to buy right now, but if I had them all lined up, I'm sure I could pick one. As best I recall Jim's major criticism was the skyline casing was too short, meaning it should met the nose cone.

Thanks,
Rich

[Big Jim]

Honestly, I am not the guy to go asking who's J is the best and I am not one to just go throwing superlatives around. I don't claim to have seen every model of the N&W Class J that has ever been made. I am also not one to take a microscope and calipers to models and compare every last detail. Some details jump out at me others not so much.

As some have mentioned, my father was a sheetmetal worker for the N&W. A "Tinner" by title, but, retiring as a "Sheetmetal Gang Leader" from N&W's Roanoke Shops with 48 yrs. 6 mos. of service! I am most fortunate to have a photo of him hammering out the skyline casing on Class J #600. This photo was published in the August 1941 N&W Magazine. He made all of these (I am told of 28 pieces of metal), so, I wouldn't think that there was more than a very small fraction of an inch of difference between any of them! Of course the K2/K2a streamlining was a completely different shape.

So, I am particularly keen at how this part is portrayed on models. Some models are good, some not so good. I will say this, one certain run of an HO PFM Crown Edition N&W Class J had the closest profile of the skyline casing that I remember. Yet, that model had other problems, particularly with the bullet nose, that kept me away from seeking one at the time. What a shame!

Hey, I like my first run MTH J. I swapped the trailing truck for a Lionel trailing truck (sans brake cylinder)! I like my first run Lionel J #605. I swapped out the single rods for a set of double rods. But, these are three rail and one must remember that you can't just scale down everything and make it work!

I have tried my best to guide some manufacturers (and modelers as well) as to what details are prototypical and what isn't. This information I have always offered free of charge as I do like doing the reference work (and I've had some help along the way). Nothing was expected in return other than a correct model. Some have listened, others have flat told me "we don't need your help"! I can do no more than try. So, there we are.

Chris,
I think that you are might be right about the Class A feedwater heater. Yet, I have seen the same look on other models. There are some other issues. The trailing truck looks a bit tall and the frame of the "as built" tender didn't have that slight "fishbelly" look. I haven't pulled out my "Mercedes of Steam" book yet to look things over closer. If one is to get down to it, I am sure the series of models could be nit-picked to death because over the years appearances changed, but overall, according to my personal photos, it looks like Lionel came to Roanoke and did a pretty good job of copying the Class A.

[Chris Rock]

Rich, yes, Ajin did the Overland model. Thanks for the correction.

Jimmy, thanks for the insight.

[bob turner]

Yes! Thanks to all of you for the insights.

Cylinder size is always an issue on models designed for 3-railers - never noticed it on the J. I like the driver size on my model, but now will take the micrometer to the airport to check. The Williams lithograph makes me smile - for me, the paint is perfect.

There are folks who know how to 2-rail O Scale locomotives. I am one, but I do not do it professionally. I taught my brother, and he did a bunch of stuff for Vince Waterman. I still have a set of "drop-in" drivers for the Williams PRR T1. Cost is prohibitive - and he didn't make enough $ to keep the lights on.

If we find someone with a screw machine who can make tires for cheap, then 2-railing becomes a lot less expensive. Spinning out identical tires one at a time is extremely time consuming even with a good lathe and proper tooling.