Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

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E7
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Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby E7 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:31 pm

Here are a couple of recent Dan's Depot sales of the SP 4-10-2:

https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Pro ... hell-Stack Sold for $9500 & free shipping


https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Pro ... ouble-Dome Sold for $5500 and free shipping
It was noted that the pilot had been damaged and repaired

Seems like Sofue is king of the heap despite C&LS 100% accuracy!

Robert
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby Robert » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:25 pm

These must be the ultimate "Free Shipping" specimens ever. In truth, were I burdened with excessive disposable income I'd own such a model(s). On my railroad they would be as out of place as I am at a ballet recital... :)

Robert

bob turner
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby bob turner » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:55 pm

I love the 4-10-2. At these prices, I love other things more. If all Sofue did was replace the gears in a Max Gray, I would say the purchaser's elevator does not stop on all floors. If Sofue built the entire model, maybe.

Jay Criswell
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby Jay Criswell » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:15 pm

I had a chance to buy a Sofue SP 4-10-2 for somewhere around $2500 but I've never seen one of Henry's go anywhere near that cheap. One time sale doesn't set the market price.

Jay

bob turner
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby bob turner » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:34 pm

It might, if there are only three of them. Strange things are happening in the 2-rail market: if a doorstop E-6 sells for over 400, and zberbk ever sells that genuine cardboard box for $7.50 plus postage, and if that guy sells his brass brakewheel for ten bucks, all bets are off.

Hah - opinion.

hibar
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby hibar » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:38 pm

Just curious as to what the original buyer paid to Mr Sofue for this model, I understand they were expensive and only direct sales, any numbers?

Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:14 pm

bob turner wrote:It might, if there are only three of them. Strange things are happening in the 2-rail market: if a doorstop E-6 sells for over 400, and zberbk ever sells that genuine cardboard box for $7.50 plus postage, and if that guy sells his brass brakewheel for ten bucks, all bets are off.


I sold 3 packs of Athearn reefer hatches and 2(?) packs of the "hinges" (staples) for over $35 a few years ago -- I though that was crazy then, :mrgreen:
Conservatism: The intense fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is inferior is being treated as your equal.

E7
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby E7 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:44 am

hibar wrote:Just curious as to what the original buyer paid to Mr Sofue for this model, I understand they were expensive and only direct sales, any numbers?


Unless that thing is gold instead of brass, it is way overpriced when compared to the C&LS version. But sometimes a "name" (Tiffany for example) holds enough sway to command silly money. Still fun to speculate (discuss, that is) on this stuff. opinion

hibar
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby hibar » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:05 am

The value [pricing] of the Sofue engine to the collector is in the scarcity of the item,I would guess only a few [2-3+] were built where as Henry had at least a modest production run of the same engine. Someone out there must know the actual numbers at least on the C&LW run, I believe at the time Sofue built that model buyers were paying not too far below that price. O scale still has a small group of "serious collectors" dispite the recent passing of a few well known ones, bear in mind Brass Trains sells world wide.JMO

up148
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby up148 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:29 pm

I don't know what Sofue's engines cost new, as I've never purchased one new or knew anyone who did, but below is a list of his builds and the numbers built of each wheel type. I don't think this is conclusive, but comes very close and comes to me via Tad Daito, through Larry Sokol, so I know it's correct. The serial numbers are consecutive with the FEF's being built sometime in early to mid 2000's prior to Mr. Sofue's death in 2009. I don't know if the gaps between the last SN of one type and the 1st SN of the next type is planned or what. But, he handbuilt somewhere in the neighborhood of 180-200 models in his lifetime.

Model Qty Serial Number
UP Big Boy, 10, Not Inscribed

UP Big Boy, 20, 101 thru 120

C&NWH-1, 15, 121 thru 135

CB&Q 0-5a, 22, 140 thru 161

C&NWH-1, 7, 170 thru 176

SP 4·10-2, 35, 180 thru 214

SF 4-6-4, 36, 240 thru 275

PRR DD-'i, 16, 280 thru 311

UP FEF-2,3, 17, 320 thru 340


I think the $2500 Sofue 4-10-2 that Jay passed on was the buy of the decade, but I don't know the condition. There was a Wasatch baggage car that sold for $350 at OSW and that is another incredible buy...so they do pop up from time to time.

As for operation, detail and overall perfection, I think Henry's models are better. Sofue's models are/were the best available until someone (like Henry) built a better one, but there are still those who will pay collector money anyway. But, the Sofue FEF's are much better than the KEY's and the KEY's are the next best thing.

BH

E7
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby E7 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:40 pm

hibar wrote:The value [pricing] of the Sofue engine to the collector is in the scarcity of the item,I would guess only a few [2-3+] were built where as Henry had at least a modest production run of the same engine. Someone out there must know the actual numbers at least on the C&LW run, I believe at the time Sofue built that model buyers were paying not too far below that price. O scale still has a small group of "serious collectors" dispite the recent passing of a few well known ones, bear in mind Brass Trains sells world wide.JMO


I'm definitely NOT a brass expert or collector by any stretch of the imagination, but the scarcity thing (at least to my thinking) is a pretty weak reason. Why is it so desirable? Is it a better model? How is it superior? Are they buying the NAME/builder?

Henry made 4 road numbers @ $3800 a pop (info. from his old website via the "WayBackMachine"), but NO total numbers are mentioned, and sadly, Henry is no longer here to tell us.

Engine #5021 One steam & one sand dome Disc main driver Bell on bracket Williams Pilot Standard stack
External sand pipes

Engine #5024 One steam and two sand domes Disc main driver Bell mounted on platform Boiler tube pilot Clamshell stack External sand pipes

Engine #5036 One steam and two sand domes Disc main driver Bell on bracket Williams pilot
Clamshell stack Only one exposed sand pipe With booster piping

Engine #5048 One steam and two sand domes Disc main driver Bell mounted on platform
Boiler tube pilot Standard stack Exposed sand pipes

I can see where a Japanese (meaning ethnicity) collector might place a premium on the Sofue.

I would place a priority on the more accurate model, but I'm NOT a collector (unless you count dust)! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Fun to speculate , and it would be interesting to hear the purchaser's reason. It all boils down to what floats your boat, I suppose.

hibar
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby hibar » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:55 pm

Did not know Sofue built that many SP 4-10-2s I imagine those numbers fall in line with the limited clientele he dealt with, I would suspect Henrys run was much larger [I actually knew Henry for many years before he started importing] I was fortunate several years ago at the Towson, MD O scale national to talk with Dave Pierson [I believe] from Pa he was one of only 2 Americans ever to visit Mr Sofue in Japan and he had 2 of the engines in the wood cases at the meet.At that time I think he was talking about dropping values [2010-2011?],still see Dave at the Strasburg meets.I wonder if the heavier sheet brass construction of KTM [Sofue, Japan] models has ever been equaled by the Korean builders, obviously they have taken details to a much higher level. JMO

up148
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby up148 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:02 pm

I didn't mean to downplay the Sofue engine, as they are quite remarkable in their own right. Coasting drive, fully sprung and equalized suspension including trailing truck under the loco, fully sprung and equalized tender suspension, fully lighted (old school), full cab interior, opening hatches, turrets, boiler steps (if applicable) and more, very accurate detailing through out. Before Kohs Challengers, Key AC-'s and all the C&LS locos, Sofue was the cats meow, but technology has allowed newer products to improve beyond where Sofue was able to go. He was old school and built in the Japanese tradition.

But, Sofue models do have a strong collector following and intrinsic value and with less than 200 in the world, total, I expect if any builders engines will hold value or increase in the future, it will be his. Opinion.

BH

bob turner
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby bob turner » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:53 pm

Re: heavy brass construction

Believe it or not, the recent Sunset steam (not including the little guys like that SP Atlantic) were heavier gauge brass than USH.

And actually, the smaller steam from USH, like the UP Consolidation and SP Mastodon, were brass foil too - not substantial models.

I would someday love to study a Sofue or Bultmann, but they do not belong in my collection. I like to be able to turn them upside down, remove the mechanism with two screws, and fix what breaks.

Wolf
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Re: Calling all SP 4-10-2 C&LS and Sofue (So Phooey) fans

Postby Wolf » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:29 pm

hibar wrote:Did not know Sofue built that many SP 4-10-2s I imagine those numbers fall in line with the limited clientele he dealt with, I would suspect Henrys run was much larger [I actually knew Henry for many years before he started importing]



When Henry hand-delivered my SP 4-10-2 that I had ordered (to my house, talk about SERVICE! :shock: :D :D) ,
he showed me some pictures of the models lined up on a table in the builder's shop, etc. When I asked him how
many he had them build, I believe that he said 125, if my memory serves me right. That was for the total of all
4 variations.
Take care,
Wolfgang


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