O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

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Carey Williams
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O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby Carey Williams » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:13 pm

Hello O scale world

O scale has always been for the well tailored ...but check out some of the prices from May 1946 ..
Leonard Blum was a big time train dealer in Cleveland ,monthly he ran ads with his latest offerings .

Articulated 2-8-8-0 $ 675 1946 dollars !!!

Alexander & Icken 440 + cars and case $550

Streamliner set from 1939 Worlds Fair $ 650

These were used trains ! .... how much was Icken charging for the new custom built engine during this period ?


Wow some huge dollars for used equipment .... during the war there was a total lack of new product ( assuming the product was metal) available ...so booming business in used equipment was born and used items could sell for more than original new price. However, the grains of sand in the hour glass for O scale were running out as HO took an ever increasing piece of the pie...
Below a chart showing the erosion for 1936-1939 and again from 1936-42 ....

I assume charts like this exist during the post war era ..locked within the pages Model Railroader somewhere

Cheers Carey

PS If any bought that 1939 World's Fair streamlined set please post a few pictures

for some reason matter how I turn the one image ..it remains sideways sorry




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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:23 am

Yup.

O scale modelers are all independently wealthy. :roll:
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Robert
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby Robert » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:29 am

I'm mostly independent, willing to give wealthy a try, but for now being in O scale is sufficient enough to give value to my humble existence... :)

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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby E7 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:17 am

They are out there......they are just too busy dusting their brass to respond here. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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sarge
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby sarge » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:30 am

It is upon these flawed interpretations mythology is not only born but becomes effectively fact.

You show selected items in one advert, used to support the notion that O for some reason is the purview of the wealthy. I for one could never have been considered as a member of the poshier classes in the fifty plus years I've been in O, and the percentage of well-heeled to middle class I've known over those years is in line with any other scale and indeed any other pursuit where some amount of descretionary income is required.

I would suggest a look at some of the other adverts and catalogues of the era. Freightcar kit prices in general, the ability to buy loco kits in sections to make costs a bit more palatable, and the general propensity for the hobbiest to roll their own is much more indicative of the cross section of hobbiests then and now.

Fred Icken was catering to an elite in the hobby, if his prewar prices were indicative. Leonard Blum is doing the same; those are some pretty high-end choices on your part as evidence (perhaps a look at the classifieds in the same mag would give you some data points more in line with the norm for immediate postwar used equipment pricing). Today, we have a component that buys high-end brass, many of whom buy only a couple pieces because they aren't wealthy; they just save for them. Neither the bulders of the day nor the Key's of today are indicative of the majority, though, moreso one niche of a much larger population.

This whole longrunning myth is very much like looking at a Ferrari advert and concluding most car owners are rich. Its just bollocks.

Edited to correct a syntax error. Yeah, me.
Last edited by sarge on Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rufus T. Firefly
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:38 am

sarge wrote:This whole longrunning myth is............


...........50 lbs of whale dreck in a 5 oz bag. :wink:
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Robert
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby Robert » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:12 am

I had considered modeling some whale dreck, but could not envision a likely place to put it. That's some of what us economically deprived O scalers sort through between needless purchases... :roll:

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John Webster
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby John Webster » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:20 pm

In the era Rufus models Sperm whale dreck was prized for it's occasional ambergris content. Ambergris was worth it's weight in gold as it was used in high end perfumes. My grandmother's treadle powered sewing machine had a small can of "genuine sperm whale oil" in one of it's drawers. That lubricating oil was distilled from the fluid in the space in the whale's head that magnifies it's clicks. I discovered that can of oil shortly after reading Moby Dick, the tangible and olfactory connection to Melville's tale was impressive.
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Carey Williams
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby Carey Williams » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:18 pm

Hello O scale world the 99%ers ( those not found within the 1% please ) .

I did not indeed to ruffle feathers .... ok so I chose some high end pieces as examples ... please note in the following month, articulated was still available ..but someone beat me to the Stream-lined set .

Lets go to a couple of other more pedestrian examples.
First two 1946 ... Lobaugh articulated ..275+ ...Mini Scale Hudson ..now 8-9 years old selling for more than it did new offered now at 110 yes there are other cheaper O scale engines ..but looking at the HO at the bottom O scale was always 50% to 75% sur charge to the smaller gauges

Last two images 1939 here we compare with OO when it was in it's prime ... still much cheaper than O scale

Walthers kits ... HO is near half the price of O scale ....

So you may not had to have run with the Rothschild's or Rockefeller's to enter O scale ..but for the average Joe it was a significant increase in price for the larger gauge.

it is interesting in the wants ads of Model Railroading of 1946 ... at the beginning of the year O gauge leads ...about mid way through the year, HO is given the premier position , than OO and finally O .
Cheers Carey

Again the images were all straight when viewed ..but now on the preview on the side ..sorry ..just turn your monitor side ways





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De Bruin
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby De Bruin » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:22 am

Ah yes, 3 in1 oil was purportedly whale oil at one time in its product life ( fond nostalgia for whaling industry these days, thank goodness Japan still doing "research")
Disparaging commentary aside I think there is some merit in William’s observations; if at least you accept that these old advert prices are any indication. Pre-internet, lived in the right place, could go to swap meets, train shows etc. I believe you could get around some of this, but lived away from the Midwest? the Coasts or larger cities, think you were likely screwed which in part is why kit builds often not a choice back in the day, but how you had to do it.

To Sarge's point though, you can’t characterize the state of acquisition for model railroaders back then based solely on these listings. Example (albeit my obvious obsession, passenger cars) from only just 1967, this advert is instructional as to how inflated dealer mark-up was pre-internet; Hobby House, Cleveland,
Image
That seven car Pomona Valley set indexes to $156 & change per car, also don't the dynamics of set pricing normally reduce unit cost? hmm
Image
Likewise absurd per car price on the leading listing for the Kasiners licking $200 in today’s dollars, my opinion these old adverts were often just impulse listings to hook the well healed or temporarily flush and not wholly representative of the true market. And I won't even touch the math on that four car Alexander set, yikes.
Price by itself was an issue but it never kept me truly out of buying, it sure slowed me down though.
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bob turner
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby bob turner » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:13 am

I think I would sell all my Kasiners for $200 each. I recently sold some punched extrusions for what I thought was a lot of money - forty bucks. Kasiners are no longer state of the art - even K-Line beats them. Opinion.

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Arthur P. Bloom
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby Arthur P. Bloom » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:54 am

An advertised price is not a selling price.

The true rich men are the ones who collect models in 12" to the foot.
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sarge
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby sarge » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:04 am

Nothing meant to be disparaging from here, more as a matter of perspective rather than the rich mythology of O; its for wealthy people, two-rail is harder to wire than three rail, you need big curves, all that stuff that we hear constantly. I always hold the opinion it all really is a collection of "driver's excuses" for the fact you got to build the stuff rather than buy it, but that's an opinion.

To that one Blum advert, a piece of perspective. Historically, that year or two after the war was rife with attempts to get more out of the worth of prewar stuff than it was worth, not just trains but cars, radios, whatever. You are in time between the ending of being urged to spend your discretionary income on war-bonds and your discretionary time on war work and having precious little hobby production started up again. Add to it the military coming home and there was quite a bit of trade of second-hand prewar "luxuries" at demand-will-bear pricing and plenty of people itching to spend money for the first time since Pearl Harbor. Second-hand trade had no price ceilings, which were still in place, BTW. I grew up in the hobby with people who remember this very very well, so not conjecture even though second-hand.

Now, as to a comparison piece by piece between HO and O, that comparison is a bit dangerous too. Simplistically an O model takes eight times the volume of an HO model, so over-simplistically is it eight times the material costs to produce? Certainly I need fewer pieces at four times the footprint, so as a craftsman I can spend as much time detailing and building and enjoying that one piece per unit footprint as four like HO pieces.

Where HO shined wasn't so much the lack of space that people cite after the war. I currently own a little standard postwar Cape and there is plenty of room for O if you want to do O. The shine was when HO became reliable enough such that you could have more stuff in the same space in that home. Over time, the fluke of more product available in HO rather than O attracted the less craftsman-oriented modeller. Even without that double whammy of ease and quantity, N has made some pretty significant inroads just trading on quantity.

The anomaly that doesn't help the "price" case for HO dominance is this next event, the development of reliable N Scale. The pricing per unit has never been all that different between HO and N, so how did N establish so strongly if price was the issue? It isn't. How much you can put in a given space (price per unit area be damned) is the driver.

Now lets look again at the oft cited and fictitious "quantity of space prewar vs. postwar" argument. If HO really was a choice due primarily to amount of space, as the historians would have us believe, the experience in the UK makes no sense at all, for O is huge in Britain, and trust me when I tell you the houses have much less space than almost anything here. O (7mm) in the UK is strong enough to have a very high ratio of domestic product to imported, for example. It's a very different world but the rationale used here doesn't hold up, any more than the notion my butt-common little standard '40s postwar house is somehow got less potential space than what was common pre-war. If anything, the newish concept of putting concrete in the cellar floor rather than dirt gives it more.

So, is O really more expensive (to the point of being for the well-heeled)? By the unit, well yeah it is and always has been more expensive. But when the choice is to focus on the individual models as in the craftsman mould or the quantity of models for the same space available (rarely less) as in the model railroad mould, that individual value judgement really chooses scale to a large degree. The resulting space invested is probably the same for the most part, and the question becomes whether O is more expensive to fill a given footprint (with fewer pieces of higher detail) than HO, then or now.
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ScaleCraft
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby ScaleCraft » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:13 pm

In a couple of instances, two rail IS harder to wire than three rail.
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sarge
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Re: O scale a rich's mans hobby circa 1946

Postby sarge » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:51 pm

Dave:
Different? Yes.

Difficult? No.

It only seems to be a difficulty in the world of 1.25" gauge-based scales in America. Everyone else doesn't seem to find it difficult at all.

Odd, that.
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