C-Trucks for GE U-Boats

[R.K. Maroon]

I am working with my brother on a project to build up several Penn-Erie U-boats. Part of this effort led to trying to understand all the different C-trucks that came on these locomotives. Without really trying, I managed to accumulate a good number of different O-scale C-trucks. So here is a survey that could be titled "what have I got and what prototype did they go on".

First, the GE Tri-Mount truck, sitting under a U25C:

Penn-Erie U25C with Tri-Mount Trucks.jpg (278.3 KiB) Viewed 6335 times

The U25C and Phase 1 U28C are the only U-boats to get these trucks. They also were used on the E44 and EL-C/EF-4/E33 electrics. The particular pair of trucks shown are from a House of Duddy model of the New Haven EF-4 (and are borrowed here just for the photo). When I first got started on this I got fooled into thinking that just because these look like the Alco Tri-Mount trucks that they were more-or-less equivalent. Wrong-o:

GE Tri-Mount vs Alco Tri-Mount.jpg (315.91 KiB) Viewed 6335 times

As can be seen, everything about the GE is larger by a significant amount. Some of you may have noticed my "want to buy" ad on O-Scale Yard Sale for a set of the GE version. This U25C is the target model. I have been advised that Lou Houlemarde may have these available and I will contact him. A set of the one-piece cast aluminum sideframes that Penn-Erie provided with these would also work.

Jim

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

I've always wanted to get a pair of A1A-A1A trucks to make a Seaboard RSC-2 or RSC-3. Here's a good shot of SAL RSC-2 #1541:

sal 1541 rsc-2.jpg (736.87 KiB) Viewed 6319 times

I believe they used these engines on areas that had a light rail loading, to help spread out the weight of the engine.

Not sure if these are the same as yours, I do see a bit of variation.

[sarge]

Two things of interest perhaps.

The Commonwealth trimount on Alco was 12' 6" in wheelbase, I believe all the way through the C628 if memory serves.

The GE version for U25c was 13' even, and had a different shape equaliser than the ones done for Alco; a bit more curvaceous.

Commonwealth also made a double-equaliser version, but that isn't germane here. I think BLW used it for one.

The E44 truck was huskier still, thicker cross sections and depths, if I remember, but the wheelbases were still 13' . There might be argument whether they were beefed up from the U25c truck, so a check of primary source would be worthwhile. If my memory is still good, they were and aren't interchangeable on the real thing. Staring at photos, it isn't obvious to me they are different, so either memory is poor or it isn't obvious enough to matter much. I wish Tom Harley was still with us, so I could ring him up; he'd remember.

All that said, be careful using model trucks for comparisons, for there should only be a wheelbase difference of 0.125 between a good model of the commonwealth truck for Alco and for GE. I'm guessing one of those you show is either grossly undersized or grossly oversize, to fill the available space rather than actually replicate the prototype. An example would be the RSD-5's offered over the years that began as RS-3 models can often have a undersized C truck.

Depends on how much you are sweating the small stuff, of course.

What a lot of folks don't realise is these were Commonwealth designs that, in the case of this truck and the even-spaced two motor version Bobd mentions, have a common design root. The grandaddy is the six-wheel heavyweight passenger truck. Each time it was redesigned for a new purpose, it changed a bit, beef it up, shift an axle to clear the motors, but you can still recognise the family heritage. Same with the Alco and GE B-truck, a beefed up version of the old heavyweight Commonwealth baggage car and coach truck.

BTW, you do know your lead truck is backwards in the photo, don't you? Its a test to see if we're paying attention.

[bob turner]

I am a true truck freak. I have never seen the Duddy trucks sold separately, but judging from the GG1 truck and the above photos, I'd say they were the definitive truck. Who has the masters?

Jim - don't forget the Squaw Creek version. These things look elegant on the EMD truck with a high nose. I have spare EMD sideframes (oversize, but what the heck).

[Erik C Lindgren]

Wow that's awesome

[R.K. Maroon]

Much to reply to here:

I've always wanted to get a pair of A1A-A1A trucks to make a Seaboard RSC-2 or RSC-3

Bob, so when you say they are A1A, that means no middle motor, which means the axle spacing could be equal, which means if they used the tri-mount truck it would be as a matter of convenience, not necessity (as the tri-mount has the unequal spacing to account for three traction motors). No doubt cheaper though then designing a new truck, and using a common design also reduces procurement and spares costs (or so I would think).

The Commonwealth trimount on Alco was 12' 6" in wheelbase. The GE version for U25c was 13' even. I'm guessing one of those you show is either grossly undersized or grossly oversize, to fill the available space rather than actually replicate the prototype

Yes, the difference in the axle spacing is only 6". And yes the Kemtron RSD truck is undersized, but this could not fully account for why these look right:

U25C with GE Tri-Mount Trucks.JPG (46.82 KiB) Viewed 6250 times

And these look so wrong:

U25C with Alco Tri-Mount Trucks.JPG (48.84 KiB) Viewed 6250 times

So I dug into it a bit. First, here is a closeup of an RS with AAR Type B trucks. The images are from The Diesel Shop website. They are not guaranteed to be perfectly scale but likely representative:

RS-3 Truck Closeup.JPG (36.71 KiB) Viewed 6250 times

The trucks have a 9' wheel base. When I look at this, I can't imagine there is room for a truck with a 12'-6" wheelbase. But I would be wrong:

RDS-5 Truck Closeup.JPG (40.47 KiB) Viewed 6250 times

How did they do it? In part by moving the brake equipment from the outside of the wheels to the inside. If you look at the GE Tri-Mount truck in the first photo, you can see that they moved the brakes back to the outside of the wheels.

By the way, the Kemtron Alco Tri-Mount trucks for the RSD-4/5 may be a bit undersized, but you would be forgiven for not thinking so when you look at the model:



They appear to my eye to be well proportioned. As it is, Kemtron made the trucks a bit undersized to allow more clearance to the chassis at each end then the prototype has -- an oft-necessary concession to the realities of modeling, especially give that this model was sold as a kit.

Who has the Duddy masters?
The Squaw Creek version look elegant on the EMD truck.

I have been told that Duddy went to CLW for the truck castings, which was why I was encouraged to contact Lou Houlemarde. As to the EMD trucks, I will post a photo of those for comparison to the later GEs.

Stay tuned -- more to come
Jim

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Jim,

Here's what's on Wikipedia, for whatever that's worth:

Locomotives with A1A-A1A (UK & AAR) or (A1A)(A1A) (UIC classification) wheel arrangement.
Pages in category "A1A-A1A locomotives"

The following 69 pages are in this category, out of 69 total. This list may not reflect recent changes (learn more).
A

ALCO DL-109
ALCO PA
ALCO RSC-3
ALCO RSC-1
ALCO RSC-2
Atlantic Coast Line 501

B

Baldwin AS-416
Baldwin DR-6
Baldwin DRS-6-4-660NA
Baldwin DRS-6-4-750
Baldwin DRS-6-4-1000
Baldwin DRS-6-4-1500
British Rail 18000
British Rail Class 31
British Rail Class 41 (Warship Class)
British Rail Class 80

C

China Railways DF4
CIE 101 Class
Commonwealth Railways GM class
Commonwealth Railways NSU class
CP Class 1300
CP Class 1320
CP Class 1500

D

Delaware & Hudson 16
DSB Class MX
DSB Class MY

E

EMC AB6
EMC E1
EMC E2
EMC E3
EMC E4
EMC EA/EB
EMD E-unit
EMD E5
EMD E6
EMD E7
EMD E8
EMD E9
EMD G8
EMD G12
EMD GL8
EMD GT22HW-2
EMD GT46PAC

F

FM Erie-built
FM H-12-46

G

GE Dash 9-44CW
GE Evolution Series
GMD GMD1

I

Indian locomotive class WDM-1

M

MLW RSC-13
MLW RSC-14
MLW RSC-24
MRWA F class

N

New South Wales 40 class locomotive
New Zealand DA class locomotive
New Zealand DB class locomotive
New Zealand DG and DH class locomotive
Nickel Plate Road 190
NSB Di 3
New Zealand DC class locomotive

Q

Queensland Railways 1170 class
Queensland Railways 1400 class

R

RENFE class 313

S

SJ T41
SNCF Class A1AA1A 68000
South Australian Railways 900 class
Sri Lanka Railways M1
Sri Lanka Railways M2

T

TCDD DE18100

Another good source of info:

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~shadow/prr-diesels/sideframes/a1a.html

I'll have to take all this in, but it sounds to me that there are many different "A-1-A" trucks. I think the only thing that can be said is that an A-1-A truck has 2 powered axles and the middle axle is not.

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

More stuff about the SAL RSC2...of the 37 total, all but 6 were converted from the original friction bearing trucks to roller bearing, 4-wheel trucks in 1955 (RSC2M). In 1965, six were converted back to 6-wheel trucks using trucks from engines stripped for trade-in.

But, their RSC3s all appear to have 6-wheel, roller bearing trucks, at least from the photos in the book "SEABOARD MOTIVE POWER" by Warren Calloway and Paul Withers. Looking at a couple of the RSC2s, it looks like the ones converted back to 6-wheels may have gotten roller bearings vice friction bearings. Not sure if they came off RSC3 trade-ins or what. On that point it sounds almost contradictory to what the book said about the RSC2s earlier.

[sarge]

Jim, I think your eyeball is calibrated to the Kemtron truck, which is undersized and mis-shaped. You might be used to it. The RSD has a three foot longer wheelbase in total than the RS3, and the look is just not captured by the Kemtron RSD at all, to my eye. Even ignoring the rather horrible shape of the longer equaliser, it really doesn't capture the look any more to me under the RSD than under your U25c. It's very undersized.

I don't know that all the RSD5 did not have clasp brakes on the end wheels, but certainly many of the RSD7 through C628 did have full clasps on the same basic castings, though the ears may have moved to accomidate.

I'm not saying the GE truck and the Alco are the same, but they are much closer to each other in reality than you might think looking at the Kemtron vs. Duddy models.

Yes, the axle spacing is purposely to clear the centre traction motor, which would otherwise foul the end axle's motor. The RSC truck has even spacings since the centre axle is unpowered. The RSC3 was trucked that way for very light axle loading lines and I believe was unique to SAL, though a couple roads had the earlier RSC2, also A-1-A but a much different design truck. Given the RSC2 was earlier, I'd bet the return to some permutation of Commonwealth design was for commonality, though maybe more for bolster design, between the later RS3/RSC3/RSD4 range, then it just stuck.

[Chris Webster]

More stuff about the SAL RSC2...of the 37 total, all but 6 were converted from the original friction bearing trucks to roller bearing, 4-wheel trucks in 1955 (RSC2M). In 1965, six were converted back to 6-wheel trucks using trucks from engines stripped for trade-in.

The hulk of one is preserved in my hometown:
Railpictures.net: Alco RSC-2 at Utica, NY in 2003
Another one, complete and running, is apparently in the Danbury Railway Museum in Connecticut: DANBURY RAILWAY MUSEUM EQUIPMENT ROSTER as of July, 2011

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Thanks Chris!

(drift on)
Isn't it odd how equipment from one RR ends up in another part of the country that wasn't ever associated with the original RR?

The only equipment we have here in Portsmouth (home of the SAL) is all N&W

Maybe the owners ought to get together and make a swap
(drift off)

We used to have a (either SAL or ACL) caboose at the local park back in the 50s, but they took it away (too many used condoms for the kids to see I guess).

[Chris Webster]

Here's what's on Wikipedia, for whatever that's worth:

I figured Diesel Era or RMC had published an article about U-boat trucks, so I searched the model train index. Unfortunately, the only thing I was able to find was Kalmbach's April 2002 Field Guide to Modern Diesel Locomotives - it apparently includes an article titled "General Motors Electro Motive Division: Locomotive Trucks".

The RSC3 was trucked that way for very light axle loading lines and I believe was unique to SAL, though a couple roads had the earlier RSC2, also A-1-A but a much different design truck. Given the RSC2 was earlier, I'd bet the return to some permutation of Commonwealth design was for commonality, though maybe more for bolster design, between the later RS3/RSC3/RSD4 range, then it just stuck.

FWIW, a picture of a damaged Milwaukee Road RSC-2 coupled to a RSD-5 was just added to the railpictures database: MILW 576 and 573 at La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA in July, 1972

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Chris' post led me to look into my back issues of Mainline Modeler. I found an article on the U25C in the Feb 97 issue and scanned an image:

U25C Drawing MM Feb 97.jpg (555.34 KiB) Viewed 6136 times

Enlargement of the truck:

U25C Enlargement MM Feb 97.jpg (442.24 KiB) Viewed 6136 times

The article didn't really say anything about the trucks and I didn't see any other articles listed just on diesel trucks.

[Chris Webster]

It didn't occur to me to lookup U25C (big duh!) The October 91 issue of Mainline Modeler had a Warren Calloway article titled "GE diesels, Part 1 - 1959-1977".

Also, the U25C wikipedia article cites Diesel Era's Volume 4 Number 1 January/February 1993 issue -- it contained a 20 page article titled "General Electric U25C".

[Seaboard Air Line Fan]

Chris,

Looking at that article by Warren C., there's almost as many different truck types as there are engine types!!!

Here's a link to Warren's Flickr page:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/90431313@N05/