Northern weather

[DennisB]

Tramp, that's a great idea for an article.

And thank you, Murph, for using a scene on your wonderful layout
to illustrate the difference.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

...The balance is the key, still with a lifelike vibrancy on the one hand but a natural satin sheen of real life...
Does any of this make sense?

You certainly have made sense, Sarge. Poetic sense. And since you are speaking in a conversation to hobbyists who have used expressions such as:
"Our mini-world is an illusion where with a few things and details you can create a feeling"

and "...using illusion in the sense where something looks like something it is not"

and "...subtle details that make a scene look natural"

and have had it suggested creating a layout is "...like writing a story - every word either adds or subtracts,"

we understand.

And then we had a bit of Rufus Wisdom: "If you don't know where you're going [with your layout], you'll probably get there," which can be interpreted a couple different ways - just like our layouts (!)
Murph

What a pleasure this conversation has been. My thanks to all who were moved to participate. I learned plenty and am still giving it all further thought, and I have a feeling some of our readers enjoyed the ride, too.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

...
...Murph, thank you for being the victim of this HUGELY interesting experiment. Cheers to you!...

Thank you for the Cheers, Tramp.
However, I didn't feel like a victim at all. It is I who thanks you for inviting me to have this public conversation and for trusting that I would not get defensive or involved in a negative brawl about it.

In fact, Tramp, if you and our friends here would like another go-round on this topic, I have an array of photos of another neighborhood ready for your inspection and suggestions. Shall we?
Murph

[John Webster]

As a car buff one thing that stood out in Murph's layout photos was the improbable mixture of eras represented by the various vehicles. When the lovely shots of the street vendor with just the VWs showed up I thought them an improvement. Then I noticed the clothing on the figures. Probably because they are mostly dressed the way I remember people from the 50s though many could have looked like that as early as the 30s (men with hats, women with calf length skirts).
The Jaguar could have been parked in front of the street vendor if the woman further up the sidewalk was wearing a mini-skirt.
We don't run 36' truss rod box cars with tri-level auto racks because it would offend our railroad centric sensibilities. When creating beautiful scenes like Murph's the avoidance of anachronisms helps sustain the sense of the era we are trying to model (says the guy with the HO PRR T1 and the O scale PRR D10).

[HONDO74]

This has really been an interesting topic. Have enjoyed everyone's expressed opinions. It has really added to the content of MTJ. Much better than reading the over obsession that some seem to have about what goes on over at another train forum.

Frank, being another person that came of age in the 50s. I said it before that your street scenes have always brought back memories and a vision of Main street USA 1950s for me. It does not matter to me if the scene has more or less vehicles. I do dwell on each photo for an extended period of time taking in all the attention to detail that you have created. I remember one picture where a parade was going down the street and the horses had left some manure in the street.

Now that is real artistic with attention to detail. Andrew Carnegie said "no man becomes rich unless he enriches others. Feel proud that you have been enriching the lives of others with you Insta-Ramas and those will live on for a long time to come.

Getting back to the 50s. Most of the photos we see of main street USA are in black and white so I took the liberty of converting one of your recent photos to black and white to see how it would compare to those photos I posted. The message I get when attaching the picture
(Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached.)

So keep posting more of your work here as it has created a lot of interest
Robert

[MurphOnMillerAve]

As a car buff one thing that stood out in Murph's layout photos was the improbable mixture of eras represented by the various vehicles. ...

...Then I noticed the clothing on the figures.

Probably because they are mostly dressed the way I remember people from the 50s though many could have looked like that as early as the 30s (men with hats, women with calf length skirts).
The Jaguar could have been parked in front of the street vendor if the woman further up the sidewalk was wearing a mini-skirt.. ..

Moving from the point Tramp made about the number of vehicles at curbside in any particular scene to the time periods of cars and trucks, each of your points intrigues me, John.

That does not mean I agree with them, necessarily. Of course, you are correct with each of them, but that doesn't mean they have purpose or meaning to all of us. Circa-fidelity, as you have well noticed, is not so important to me when it comes to parked or in-traffic vehicles on my layout, and certainly not enough to co-ordinate the length of women's skirts with car model years, or the rolling-stock passing by on the rails, that's for sure.

I know steam came first; then, diesel, because I was there during that time period. In fact, I even went with my father in the mid-50's, on several occasions, to see the steam locomotives being pushed, seemingly with heads held low, toward the bright fires of the furnaces that recycled them. However, how long a mixture of both steam and diesel made its shared way along the rails of the USA was not noted by me, and I don't care about it when I operate the layout. Regarding the circa of my trains, steam and diesel, I just want them to run (!) esp. when I have guests . You run - you stay on the tracks; you fail - you're off to the shelves. Banished. (Too bad they can't be "re-cycled.")

In fact, from personal experience, I have lived during a time when cars from a variety of decades existed at the same curb. For example, my mother drove a '54 Mercury, right into the 60's; I drove a '58 Cadillac during the 60's; at the same time, I washed a neighbor's '56 Cadillac Coupe de Ville; my uncle still drove his '49 Ford coupe and loved it; a neighbor immediately next door had a '34 Ford in his garage, often taken out for air and our collective ooo's and aw's; a neighbor up the street bought the first model year for Buick Riviera (with the caps that closed over the headlights). Americans did not all bolt from their homes once a decade changed to go out to buy the latest model whatever. Add to that folks holding onto antique cars, and any given scene can ostensibly, possibly, have a mixture of circas, IMO.

Now, as you point out, on my layout, there is an extreme mixture of vintages of vehicles. I indulged myself. As a result of this discussion, I am considering moving some of that around, with an effort to keep, at least, only a couple decades within sight of each other within any particular scene. Even the idea of "excess-ing" some of the newer models is do-able, if I were motivated to do so. I am not sure I am, but the process would be an easy one since we have, all along, given vehicles, directly off the layout, to children, and even some adults, who have admired them and wanted them. We have done that for over ten years, so the layout has been "culled" somewhat.

When I (Layout Refinements) have offered my "Insta-Ramas"for sale at York, PA TCA Meets, and to clients, I quickly discovered, of course, that vehicles marked a scene with a time-stamp, so I avoided including them, for the most part, unless they were old-but-still-in-use or derelict as part-&-parcel of the scene's narrative. I let the scene do the story telling, sans vehicles. Folks could imagine it for whatever circa suited them and add their own transportation icons.
Murph

[Tramp]

Murph, a few more thoughts for you:

First, please present us with a couple more scenes, with and without mixed vehicles. I've enjoyed this. (Shall we move it to the Jungle for better future reference?)

Second, some of your modern vehicles jibe visually with your buildings and figures. Not from era but looks. They say "cluttered toy train layout," not "well-done model railroad." For me, your placement and choice of vehicles does not match your refined modeling, but maybe you want that? Those decisions are yours; I can only report on what I observe. In your Insta-ramas you use vehicles well. Ask yourself what is important to the viewer? These bright toy-like vehicles or my wonderfully modeled scenes? Notice what attracts the eye first. Most educated viewers will move on after their first impression, unless engaged by something out of the ordinary.

Third, the very crowded B&W city street pictures were probably photographed on Saturdays when everyone was coming to town. Now everyone goes to the mall. And all the cars are similar so that it is not visually jarring.

On a weather note, after two days of shoveling, another blizzard has been blowing all night. I am NOT happy.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Murph, a few more thoughts for you:...
...Second, some of your modern vehicles jibe visually with your buildings and figures. Not from era but looks. They say "cluttered toy train layout," not "well-done model railroad." For me, your placement and choice of vehicles does not match your refined modeling, but maybe you want that? ...

... In your Insta-Ramasyou use vehicles well. Ask yourself what is important to the viewer? These bright toy-like vehicles or... modeled scenes? Notice what attracts the eye first. Most educated viewers will move on after their first impression, unless engaged by something out of the ordinary.
....

You certainly have hit on something essential and profound here for this conversation and my little world (pun intended).
The purpose of the vehicles throughout the layout has been to grab attention, moving the eye into and from one scene to the next. The anticipated audience was not the "educated viewer," i.e. my fellow hobbyists, but the NON-hobbyist family member or neighbor and friend not in the hobby (!)

The color. The flash. The myriad model years, all features of the vehicles inserted around town, were present to entertain, in support of and along with the trains, all of it set in, embraced and augmented by the scenery. It honestly did not occur to me that the scenery should be appreciated as remarkable for itself. It was fun to create, but it was not the focal-point for me. The whole vibrating "stew," the show, was the focal point and purpose, to draw perhaps dubious or mildly interested guests in to my enjoyment of this hobby. Remember, I had no idea, when I initially started the layout, that anybody else had saved trains from their childhood days and was certainly initially unaware a whole hobby community and world existed out there. (I don't even have any idea, to this day, when the forums came into being, allowing folks to really share as a community.)

Then things changed. When the layout was "done" (hardy har har), I still wanted to craft and felt something of a let-down, creatively. Coincidentally, OGR came to visit, which resulted in Runs163 & 168. Consequently, hobbyists began contacting me through OGR to inquire if I did custom work or sold any of my work. Layout Refinements took off. Everything I made sold, and I got commissions. My interest shifted from the layout to the Insta-Ramas.

Interestingly, my wife, who evolved into the "Message Manager" of every Insta-Rama I put my hand to, actually said, at one time, gesturing toward several areas of Moon Township, "You need to fix this up." I could see she was right. The layout had not kept up with Layout Refinements. It needed refining. The very purpose of the layout had changed and expanded, as had my interest in or hobby.

And so, here we are today, having a nice chat. I don't consider this conversation an intrusion, and it's not like I don't have the tools to make changes. Your initial intriguing suggestion and the views of others voiced in this conversation on this topic have made me think much further about making changes to the layout. Vehicle number and circa had not occurred to me to take seriously, notwithstanding Frank53's convivial chiding of me some time ago, but have now moved to the top of the list.

Let's rock on.
If anybody else feels we should continue this conversation, I'd like to hear from you, too.
Murph
P.S. Last night, I was prevented from posting any more photos, having "reached [my] limit." So, I went back to several of my postings in various threads that included photos and removed many of them to allow, perhaps, for some available space. I don't know if it worked.

[webenda]

P.S. Last night, I was prevented from posting any more photos, having "reached [my] limit." So, I went back to several of my postings in various threads that included photos and removed many of them to allow, perhaps, for some available space. I don't know if it worked.

I think the board reached its image cache limit as Dale and Robert reported they received this message, "Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached." I don't believe we have a personal limit other than the 9 per post limit.

Edit 1: Removed 9 images used to test our limits

[webenda]

Of course, we can still reply to ourselves and add 9 more images in the reply.

Unless one of us manages to fill the board's image cache to the limit.

Edit1: Removed images used to test the statement.

[healey36]

1950main.jpg

1950traffic.jpg

mainstreeteast1950s.jpg

1960smainestmansf.jpg

Great thread...lots to be seen/learned here. I agree with Hondo...I kinda like the look of town jammed with automobiles. It's reminiscent of my home town on a Saturday morning...could take you twenty minutes to go three or four blocks. I probably would try to tighten up the era's of auto's represented, but I guess it depends on what you're going for. I definitely like more than less...things start looking a bit ghost-townish with too few.

Meanwhile:


Crikey...open the door would ya!

Healey

[MurphOnMillerAve]

P.S. Last night, I was prevented from posting any more photos, having reached a limit. So, I went back to several of my postings in various threads that included photos and removed many of them to allow, perhaps, for some available space. I don't know if it worked.

I think the board reached its image cache limit as Dale and Robert reported they received this message, "Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached." I don't believe we have a personal limit other than the 9 per post limit.

OK, so I'll just stay off for a while and just read the conversations here, to give others a chance to post photos.
Murph

[AG]

*

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Murph, a few more thoughts for you:

First, please present us with a couple more scenes, with and without mixed vehicles. I've enjoyed this. (Shall we move it to the Jungle for better future reference?)
...

Tramp, I'll follow your lead on this. Perhaps, you should be the one to initiate the conversation, either here, or on another, or as another thread (?) I have the photos ready of a different section of the layout for our prospective creative discussion.
Murph

[rogruth]

This discussion has,IMO, turned into one opf the most useful held on MTJ in sometime.

I saw Murphs scenes as my home area uptown Saturday night.
Like Murph, I have done some things for others benefit.
Smoke and all the sounds that are available are most impressive to non modelers
but can be useful in bringing interest to the hobby.
At the local train show last weekend the youngsters and I use the term broadly,
were attracted to a small layout using Lionel General type locos.They liked all
of the sounds from them and that they were always running.They were NOT
interestred in the N ahd HO layouts being operated at scale speed.